[Jack-Devel] JACK, cgroups and systemd

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[Jack-Devel] JACK, cgroups and systemd

Dominique Michel-2
Recently, I experimented with Debian sid, which use systemd. Systemd
idea is nice, but its implementation is a catastrophe. It is more than
one year I am using the kernel cgroups on gentoo to get rt scheduling
with JACK, that without any trouble.

On Debian, this is just impossible, because whatever I try, systemd
insist to put what it think is good to have into the rt cgroup, which
soon or later result in a complete system freeze with even dead magic
keys. After loosing my time a few days with this, I removed Debian and
installed gentoo instead.

I found the reason here:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1063354

"Lennart Poettering:

Well, this feature is... completely irrelevant for normal desktop
people.
...
In fact, I just prepped a patch to systemd to move every service and
every user session into its own cgroup in the 'cpu' hierarchy (in
addition to the group it already creates in the 'systemd' hierarchy)."

Another completely idiotic stuff of this guy.

The point of the cgroups is it is possible to setup them for
whatever use will be made with a computer, and this guy think he have
the insane and pretentious capability to decide for every single user
of the use they will made with their computers, and he is suggesting
users doing something else are abnormal. He must be stopped!

Regards,
Dominique
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Re: JACK, cgroups and systemd

Adrian Knoth
On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 01:17:43PM +0100, Dominique Michel wrote:

> Recently, I experimented with Debian sid, which use systemd.

No, the default is still syvinit.

apt-get install sysvinit



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Re: JACK, cgroups and systemd

Patrick Shirkey
In reply to this post by Dominique Michel-2

On Sun, January 12, 2014 11:17 pm, Dominique Michel wrote:

> Recently, I experimented with Debian sid, which use systemd. Systemd
> idea is nice, but its implementation is a catastrophe. It is more than
> one year I am using the kernel cgroups on gentoo to get rt scheduling
> with JACK, that without any trouble.
>
> On Debian, this is just impossible, because whatever I try, systemd
> insist to put what it think is good to have into the rt cgroup, which
> soon or later result in a complete system freeze with even dead magic
> keys. After loosing my time a few days with this, I removed Debian and
> installed gentoo instead.
>
> I found the reason here:
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1063354
>
> "Lennart Poettering:
>
> Well, this feature is... completely irrelevant for normal desktop
> people.
> ...
> In fact, I just prepped a patch to systemd to move every service and
> every user session into its own cgroup in the 'cpu' hierarchy (in
> addition to the group it already creates in the 'systemd' hierarchy)."
>
> Another completely idiotic stuff of this guy.
>
> The point of the cgroups is it is possible to setup them for
> whatever use will be made with a computer, and this guy think he have
> the insane and pretentious capability to decide for every single user
> of the use they will made with their computers, and he is suggesting
> users doing something else are abnormal. He must be stopped!
>


That patch is over three years old. It seems like you have found a
loophole in the logic that was used to justify it.

Granted, it's annoying but it just means we have to find a better solution.

Similar to Fon's main objection to jack-session being *not flexible
enough*. We all knew it would cause problems for specific use cases but we
still haven't found a perfect solution to enable the flexibility that Fons
identified while also allowing people to get on with the task at hand.
Hence we have the less flexible but still useful for most use cases
version of jack session.



--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
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Re: [LAD] JACK, cgroups and systemd

Dominique Michel-2
Le Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:22:40 +1100 (EST),
"Patrick Shirkey" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>
> On Sun, January 12, 2014 11:17 pm, Dominique Michel wrote:
> > Recently, I experimented with Debian sid, which use systemd. Systemd
> > idea is nice, but its implementation is a catastrophe. It is more
> > than one year I am using the kernel cgroups on gentoo to get rt
> > scheduling with JACK, that without any trouble.
> >
> > On Debian, this is just impossible, because whatever I try, systemd
> > insist to put what it think is good to have into the rt cgroup,
> > which soon or later result in a complete system freeze with even
> > dead magic keys. After loosing my time a few days with this, I
> > removed Debian and installed gentoo instead.
> >
> > I found the reason here:
> > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1063354
> >
> > "Lennart Poettering:
> >
> > Well, this feature is... completely irrelevant for normal desktop
> > people.
> > ...
> > In fact, I just prepped a patch to systemd to move every service and
> > every user session into its own cgroup in the 'cpu' hierarchy (in
> > addition to the group it already creates in the 'systemd'
> > hierarchy)."
> >
> > Another completely idiotic stuff of this guy.
> >
> > The point of the cgroups is it is possible to setup them for
> > whatever use will be made with a computer, and this guy think he
> > have the insane and pretentious capability to decide for every
> > single user of the use they will made with their computers, and he
> > is suggesting users doing something else are abnormal. He must be
> > stopped!
> >
>
>
> That patch is over three years old. It seems like you have found a
> loophole in the logic that was used to justify it.
>
> Granted, it's annoying but it just means we have to find a better
> solution.
>
> Similar to Fon's main objection to jack-session being *not flexible
> enough*. We all knew it would cause problems for specific use cases
> but we still haven't found a perfect solution to enable the
> flexibility that Fons identified while also allowing people to get on
> with the task at hand. Hence we have the less flexible but still
> useful for most use cases version of jack session.

With the cgroups, that flexibility exist. One of the main point
of the cgroups is to be flexible enough to be setup for any possible
use case. But with a systemd system, that flexibility doesn't exist
any more, because the only possible "normal" use case permitted by
systemd is to run a GUI (as stated by the "normal" one in charge of this
mess).

It is more than 1 year I use the cgroups within an openrc system,
and you can do whatever you want with the cgroups. The same apply for
sysv init system.

What made me mad in that story, is not because it is a bug into systemd
which made a kernel function to misbehave, I know very well that
the only one that doesn't make bugs is the one that doesn't make
code, but this is the complete lack of consideration for other needs
than what he consider to be the needs of a "normal desktop user". Which
strongly suggest users with other needs are abnormal users. Which in
turn imply that person is a racist when he suggest I am abnormal. And I
am not the only one, systemd will break any cgroup configuration for
any other use case than to run a GUI.

Dominique

>
>
>
> --
> Patrick Shirkey
> Boost Hardware Ltd
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-audio-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
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Re: [LAD] JACK, cgroups and systemd

Patrick Shirkey

On Mon, January 13, 2014 2:28 am, Dominique Michel wrote:

> Le Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:22:40 +1100 (EST),
> "Patrick Shirkey" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
>>
>> On Sun, January 12, 2014 11:17 pm, Dominique Michel wrote:
>> > Recently, I experimented with Debian sid, which use systemd. Systemd
>> > idea is nice, but its implementation is a catastrophe. It is more
>> > than one year I am using the kernel cgroups on gentoo to get rt
>> > scheduling with JACK, that without any trouble.
>> >
>> > On Debian, this is just impossible, because whatever I try, systemd
>> > insist to put what it think is good to have into the rt cgroup,
>> > which soon or later result in a complete system freeze with even
>> > dead magic keys. After loosing my time a few days with this, I
>> > removed Debian and installed gentoo instead.
>> >
>> > I found the reason here:
>> > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1063354
>> >
>> > "Lennart Poettering:
>> >
>> > Well, this feature is... completely irrelevant for normal desktop
>> > people.
>> > ...
>> > In fact, I just prepped a patch to systemd to move every service and
>> > every user session into its own cgroup in the 'cpu' hierarchy (in
>> > addition to the group it already creates in the 'systemd'
>> > hierarchy)."
>> >
>> > Another completely idiotic stuff of this guy.
>> >
>> > The point of the cgroups is it is possible to setup them for
>> > whatever use will be made with a computer, and this guy think he
>> > have the insane and pretentious capability to decide for every
>> > single user of the use they will made with their computers, and he
>> > is suggesting users doing something else are abnormal. He must be
>> > stopped!
>> >
>>
>>
>> That patch is over three years old. It seems like you have found a
>> loophole in the logic that was used to justify it.
>>
>> Granted, it's annoying but it just means we have to find a better
>> solution.
>>
>> Similar to Fon's main objection to jack-session being *not flexible
>> enough*. We all knew it would cause problems for specific use cases
>> but we still haven't found a perfect solution to enable the
>> flexibility that Fons identified while also allowing people to get on
>> with the task at hand. Hence we have the less flexible but still
>> useful for most use cases version of jack session.
>
> With the cgroups, that flexibility exist. One of the main point
> of the cgroups is to be flexible enough to be setup for any possible
> use case. But with a systemd system, that flexibility doesn't exist
> any more, because the only possible "normal" use case permitted by
> systemd is to run a GUI (as stated by the "normal" one in charge of this
> mess).
>
> It is more than 1 year I use the cgroups within an openrc system,
> and you can do whatever you want with the cgroups. The same apply for
> sysv init system.
>
> What made me mad in that story, is not because it is a bug into systemd
> which made a kernel function to misbehave, I know very well that
> the only one that doesn't make bugs is the one that doesn't make
> code, but this is the complete lack of consideration for other needs
> than what he consider to be the needs of a "normal desktop user". Which
> strongly suggest users with other needs are abnormal users. Which in
> turn imply that person is a racist when he suggest I am abnormal. And I
> am not the only one, systemd will break any cgroup configuration for
> any other use case than to run a GUI.
>

Well we also see similar issues with PA and JACK. The reasoning appears to
be that the different camps are not really interested or motivated to
scratch each others itches and no one is being paid to do the dirty work
to make sure the corner cases are being polished.

I am working on getting some official funding for the latter so this issue
interests me from that perspective.

It seems the days are over when people had the time or motivation to fix
the tricky and annoying integration issues under there own steam.



--
Patrick Shirkey
Boost Hardware Ltd
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Re: [LAD] JACK, cgroups and systemd

Dominique Michel-2
In reply to this post by Patrick Shirkey
Le Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:22:40 +1100 (EST),
"Patrick Shirkey" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>
> On Sun, January 12, 2014 11:17 pm, Dominique Michel wrote:
> > Recently, I experimented with Debian sid, which use systemd. Systemd
> > idea is nice, but its implementation is a catastrophe. It is more
> > than one year I am using the kernel cgroups on gentoo to get rt
> > scheduling with JACK, that without any trouble.
> >
> > On Debian, this is just impossible, because whatever I try, systemd
> > insist to put what it think is good to have into the rt cgroup,
> > which soon or later result in a complete system freeze with even
> > dead magic keys. After loosing my time a few days with this, I
> > removed Debian and installed gentoo instead.
> >
> > I found the reason here:
> > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1063354
> >
> > "Lennart Poettering:
> >
> > Well, this feature is... completely irrelevant for normal desktop
> > people.
> > ...
> > In fact, I just prepped a patch to systemd to move every service and
> > every user session into its own cgroup in the 'cpu' hierarchy (in
> > addition to the group it already creates in the 'systemd'
> > hierarchy)."
> >
> > Another completely idiotic stuff of this guy.
> >
> > The point of the cgroups is it is possible to setup them for
> > whatever use will be made with a computer, and this guy think he
> > have the insane and pretentious capability to decide for every
> > single user of the use they will made with their computers, and he
> > is suggesting users doing something else are abnormal. He must be
> > stopped!
> >
>
>
> That patch is over three years old. It seems like you have found a
> loophole in the logic that was used to justify it.
>
> Granted, it's annoying but it just means we have to find a better
> solution.
>
> Similar to Fon's main objection to jack-session being *not flexible
> enough*. We all knew it would cause problems for specific use cases
> but we still haven't found a perfect solution to enable the
> flexibility that Fons identified while also allowing people to get on
> with the task at hand. Hence we have the less flexible but still
> useful for most use cases version of jack session.

With the cgroups, that flexibility exist. One of the main point
of the cgroups is to be flexible enough to be setup for any possible
use case. But with a systemd system, that flexibility doesn't exist
any more, because the only possible "normal" use case permitted by
systemd is to run a GUI (as stated by the "normal" one in charge of this
mess).

It is more than 1 year I use the cgroups within an openrc system,
and you can do whatever you want with the cgroups. The same apply for
sysv init system.

What made me mad in that story, is not because it is a bug into systemd
which made a kernel function to misbehave, I know very well that
the only one that doesn't make bugs is the one that doesn't make
code, but this is the complete lack of consideration for other needs
than what he consider to be the needs of a "normal desktop user". Which
strongly suggest users with other needs are abnormal users. Which in
turn imply that person is a racist when he suggest I am abnormal. And I
am not the only one, systemd will break any cgroup configuration for
any other use case than to run a GUI.

Dominique

>
>
>
> --
> Patrick Shirkey
> Boost Hardware Ltd
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-audio-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
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Re: [LAD] JACK, cgroups and systemd

Dominique Michel-2
In reply to this post by Patrick Shirkey
Le Mon, 13 Jan 2014 02:39:08 +1100 (EST),
"Patrick Shirkey" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>
> On Mon, January 13, 2014 2:28 am, Dominique Michel wrote:
> > Le Mon, 13 Jan 2014 00:22:40 +1100 (EST),
> > "Patrick Shirkey" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
> >
> >>
> >> On Sun, January 12, 2014 11:17 pm, Dominique Michel wrote:
> >> > Recently, I experimented with Debian sid, which use systemd.
> >> > Systemd idea is nice, but its implementation is a catastrophe.
> >> > It is more than one year I am using the kernel cgroups on gentoo
> >> > to get rt scheduling with JACK, that without any trouble.
> >> >
> >> > On Debian, this is just impossible, because whatever I try,
> >> > systemd insist to put what it think is good to have into the rt
> >> > cgroup, which soon or later result in a complete system freeze
> >> > with even dead magic keys. After loosing my time a few days with
> >> > this, I removed Debian and installed gentoo instead.
> >> >
> >> > I found the reason here:
> >> > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1063354
> >> >
> >> > "Lennart Poettering:
> >> >
> >> > Well, this feature is... completely irrelevant for normal desktop
> >> > people.
> >> > ...
> >> > In fact, I just prepped a patch to systemd to move every service
> >> > and every user session into its own cgroup in the 'cpu'
> >> > hierarchy (in addition to the group it already creates in the
> >> > 'systemd' hierarchy)."
> >> >
> >> > Another completely idiotic stuff of this guy.
> >> >
> >> > The point of the cgroups is it is possible to setup them for
> >> > whatever use will be made with a computer, and this guy think he
> >> > have the insane and pretentious capability to decide for every
> >> > single user of the use they will made with their computers, and
> >> > he is suggesting users doing something else are abnormal. He
> >> > must be stopped!
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> That patch is over three years old. It seems like you have found a
> >> loophole in the logic that was used to justify it.
> >>
> >> Granted, it's annoying but it just means we have to find a better
> >> solution.
> >>
> >> Similar to Fon's main objection to jack-session being *not flexible
> >> enough*. We all knew it would cause problems for specific use cases
> >> but we still haven't found a perfect solution to enable the
> >> flexibility that Fons identified while also allowing people to get
> >> on with the task at hand. Hence we have the less flexible but still
> >> useful for most use cases version of jack session.
> >
> > With the cgroups, that flexibility exist. One of the main point
> > of the cgroups is to be flexible enough to be setup for any possible
> > use case. But with a systemd system, that flexibility doesn't exist
> > any more, because the only possible "normal" use case permitted by
> > systemd is to run a GUI (as stated by the "normal" one in charge of
> > this mess).
> >
> > It is more than 1 year I use the cgroups within an openrc system,
> > and you can do whatever you want with the cgroups. The same apply
> > for sysv init system.
> >
> > What made me mad in that story, is not because it is a bug into
> > systemd which made a kernel function to misbehave, I know very well
> > that the only one that doesn't make bugs is the one that doesn't
> > make code, but this is the complete lack of consideration for other
> > needs than what he consider to be the needs of a "normal desktop
> > user". Which strongly suggest users with other needs are abnormal
> > users. Which in turn imply that person is a racist when he suggest
> > I am abnormal. And I am not the only one, systemd will break any
> > cgroup configuration for any other use case than to run a GUI.
> >
>
> Well we also see similar issues with PA and JACK. The reasoning
> appears to be that the different camps are not really interested or
> motivated to scratch each others itches and no one is being paid to
> do the dirty work to make sure the corner cases are being polished.
>
> I am working on getting some official funding for the latter so this
> issue interests me from that perspective.

I can only hope you will succeed with that.

>
> It seems the days are over when people had the time or motivation to
> fix the tricky and annoying integration issues under there own steam.

I can understand this when some developers seam use their time to break
the kernel and other important functions. We get udev breakage of
firmware loading with some modules, the *kit story which will hopefully
end with its disappearance, and now systemd which have a catastrophic
implementation. And that's only the ones I am aware of.

Dominique

>
>
>
> --
> Patrick Shirkey
> Boost Hardware Ltd
> _______________________________________________
> Linux-audio-dev mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
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Re: JACK, cgroups and systemd

Felix Homann-2
In reply to this post by Dominique Michel-2
2014/1/12 Dominique Michel <[hidden email]>
Recently, I experimented with Debian sid, which use systemd.

As Adrian already noted: Debian Sid does not default to systemd. So what version of systemd are you running actually?

 
On Debian, this is just impossible, because whatever I try, systemd
insist to put what it think is good to have into the rt cgroup


It doesn't on Fedora. So there seems something wrong with the systemd you're using.

 
Another completely idiotic stuff of this guy.


For sure...
So, let me ask again: Why and how are you using systemd on Debian?

 
 He must be stopped!


Dead or alive? 

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Re: [LAD] JACK, cgroups and systemd

Hermann Meyer
Am 13.01.2014 14:16, schrieb Felix Homann:
2014/1/12 Dominique Michel <[hidden email]>
Recently, I experimented with Debian sid, which use systemd.

As Adrian already noted: Debian Sid does not default to systemd. So what version of systemd are you running actually?

 
On Debian, this is just impossible, because whatever I try, systemd
insist to put what it think is good to have into the rt cgroup


It doesn't on Fedora. So there seems something wrong with the systemd you're using.

 
Another completely idiotic stuff of this guy.


For sure...
So, let me ask again: Why and how are you using systemd on Debian?

I guess it's Aptosid ( debian/sid based distribution), they just switched to default systemd in there last release. I'm a Aptosid user for years, but I keep going with sysvinit for now.


 
 He must be stopped!


Dead or alive? 



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