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[Jack-Devel] Jack Problems

liebrecht
I really have perpetual problems with jack. It just stops fro no reason
I am aware of causing and go awol

All of my applications reports it cannot be started sudeeeeenly.

qjackctl reports the following.

Cannot connect to server socket err = No such file or directory
Cannot connect to server request channel
jack server is not running or cannot be started
JackShmReadWritePtr::~JackShmReadWritePtr - Init not done for
4294967295, skipping unlock
JackShmReadWritePtr::~JackShmReadWritePtr - Init not done for
4294967295, skipping unlock

I realy wan to use jack, but it goes awol periodically.

Mixbus used to work great, but now mixbus cant start jack anymore.

Isnt there at least some for of user debug frontend for jack that can
point to the errors.
Jack is greast but hyper unfriendly and I am willing to learn, but it is
just a dustball of irrelevant information and nothing really sticks that
I can use.

If someone can help with a procedure so users can help themselves it
would be really nice to make jack a bit more user friendly.
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Re: Jack Problems

Filipe Coelho
On 22.03.2019 03:58, [hidden email] wrote:

> I really have perpetual problems with jack. It just stops fro no
> reason I am aware of causing and go awol
>
> All of my applications reports it cannot be started sudeeeeenly.
>
> qjackctl reports the following.
>
> Cannot connect to server socket err = No such file or directory
> Cannot connect to server request channel
> jack server is not running or cannot be started
> JackShmReadWritePtr::~JackShmReadWritePtr - Init not done for
> 4294967295, skipping unlock
> JackShmReadWritePtr::~JackShmReadWritePtr - Init not done for
> 4294967295, skipping unlock

Are you using the KXStudio repos?

Then this applies to you:
https://kx.studio/News/?action=view&url=changes-in-kxstudio-repos-regarding-carla-and-jack2

The output looks familiar to me...
You might just need a reboot.


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Re: Jack Problems

liebrecht
The jack community must start doing something not to endorse qjackctl.
It creates way more trouble than it solves.

I just completely removed qjackctl and reinstalled jackd.
I still have problems but at least now without qjackctl, Mixbus at leat
starts jack, but there is no sound from my 181vsl detected. The 1818VSL
flawlessly works at least within its specs. I can use it on linux to
play through it with pulseaudio, but NOT with jack.

Mixbus starts Jack successfully it reports, and sees the 1818vsl.
I know mixbus really sees the 1818vsl since if I powercycle the 1818,
then I get a popup from mixbus that it lost the device.

The 1818vsl is connected to a keyboard through spdif and works  with
windows and Presonus's flakey software (until the wincrap crashes or
hangs) so I know that the keyboard/spdif/19818vsl,USB all work. No
hardware problems.

However JACK absolutely refuses to send or recieve data for Mixbus.
However choosing ALSA as driver in Mixbus gives the same result, 1818vsl
is recognized, but absolutely NO so0und to or from 181 to mixbus.

Since there is no way to find out how mixbus routes things, it is not
and probably never will be made clear to joe user like me, but since
both jack and alsa cannot work with mixbus and 1818vsl, I must guess
that Jack uses Alsa, and if alsa wont work with the 181vsl then jack
wont in principle either.

Before I completely uninstall alsa and reinstall I first want to find
out if jack is in error.

This setup worked great for a month on Linux before it borked itself.

I have sour suspicion that somehow systemd is at the source of these
problems, how I dont know, but systemd has been the culprit with several
of my other applications that turned awol the last month.


There must be a better way to manage the entire alsa/jack thing. It is a
real royal pain to figure out. Jack is great software with enormous
potential and get people maintaining it, but there must be a more
transparent way for joe user dealing with it.

On 2019-03-22 02:40, Filipe Coelho wrote:

> On 22.03.2019 03:58, [hidden email] wrote:
>> I really have perpetual problems with jack. It just stops fro no
>> reason I am aware of causing and go awol
>>
>> All of my applications reports it cannot be started sudeeeeenly.
>>
>> qjackctl reports the following.
>>
>> Cannot connect to server socket err = No such file or directory
>> Cannot connect to server request channel
>> jack server is not running or cannot be started
>> JackShmReadWritePtr::~JackShmReadWritePtr - Init not done for
>> 4294967295, skipping unlock
>> JackShmReadWritePtr::~JackShmReadWritePtr - Init not done for
>> 4294967295, skipping unlock
>
> Are you using the KXStudio repos?
>
> Then this applies to you:
> https://kx.studio/News/?action=view&url=changes-in-kxstudio-repos-regarding-carla-and-jack2
>
> The output looks familiar to me...
> You might just need a reboot.
>
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Re: Jack Problems

Ralf Mardorf
On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 03:06:07 -0400, wrote:
>The jack community must start doing something not to endorse qjackctl.
>It creates way more trouble than it solves.

Hi,

you have bad luck, but usually qjackctl does it's job without causing
trouble.

>The 1818VSL flawlessly works at least within its specs. I can use it on
>linux to play through it with pulseaudio, but NOT with jack.

A while back I tested the 1818VSL with jack2 and it worked without
issues for me. On my machine pulseaudio wasn't installed, still isn't
installed and it unlikely will ever be installed.

I can't test the 1818VSL on an up to date install, because a while back
I tested a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd gen, too and decided to buy the
18i20. The 18i20 can be used with lower latency than the 1818VSL and
important to me, it can be used with my iPads, too. However, the
1818VSL worked here. Btw. both are using the same class compliant
driver.

Could it be that pulseaudio grabs the device on your machine?

If you should need pulseaudio, you perhaps need to learn how to handle
two sound servers for one install, if not consider to remove it.

Regards,
Ralf

--
pacman -Q linux{,-rt{-pussytoes,-cornflower,,-securityink}}|cut -d\  -f2
5.0.3.arch1-1
5.0.3_rt1-0
4.19.25_rt16-0
4.19.23_rt13-0.1
4.19.15_rt12-0
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Re: Jack Problems

liebrecht
Thanks a lot Ralf,
I am moving to Motu which will really6 ease things up. The Presonus gear
is not very well thought through, but it is not the problem here.

I am hesitant to use jack as it almost never work consistently,
pulseaudio at least works. If I uninstall pulseaudio I will lose all my
bluetooth enabled ipads and galaxys etc. That works just great. Pulse
has other problems being a systemd applicat5ion there is a lot of built
in garbage I agree, but wihout it I dont think anything can take its
place currently.

If jack would just be deterministic, I can work with it. I wrote some of
the most complex software on this planet, but it is difficult for me to
understand jack as it has no consistent specification. I have read all I
could find on the web, and it is involved and well done, but with no
consistent specification a uesr can actually get a handle on how to use
it creatively.

I used pulse and jack together for about a month with no problems, then
jacki just went awol for no apparent reason with no updates or software
installed in that period. I dont know what triggered it.

Since you say pulse does it, what is the exact mechanism by which pulse
interfere with jack. I f there were a rigorous specification for jack,
it would be easy to understand and work through these problems.

I would love for jack to work, but it keeps biting me, and i am willing
to understand it but it seems to be etherware, which works very well
just outside userspace.

As I understand it jack should be an either/or/add switch for audio
streams but that functionality is not properly declared. I found that
jack seemingly does not really do direct hardware access, which further
complicates things. If it in principle rely on alsa then those
interfaces needs to be very well documented how it communicates with
alsa, what the exceptions and conditions are etc.

Without Jack Linuxaudio becomes rigid and an everyone competes for the
same port type of situation, that is why I stick to it, but if there was
e.g. just a hard patchbay application that would replace jack I would
use it in an instant. It would not be elegant but would clearly route
signals by hand.

That is maybe what is needed until jack becomes user friendly.




On 2019-03-22 03:46, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 03:06:07 -0400, wrote:
>> The jack community must start doing something not to endorse qjackctl.
>> It creates way more trouble than it solves.
>
> Hi,
>
> you have bad luck, but usually qjackctl does it's job without causing
> trouble.
>
>> The 1818VSL flawlessly works at least within its specs. I can use it
>> on
>> linux to play through it with pulseaudio, but NOT with jack.
>
> A while back I tested the 1818VSL with jack2 and it worked without
> issues for me. On my machine pulseaudio wasn't installed, still isn't
> installed and it unlikely will ever be installed.
>
> I can't test the 1818VSL on an up to date install, because a while back
> I tested a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd gen, too and decided to buy the
> 18i20. The 18i20 can be used with lower latency than the 1818VSL and
> important to me, it can be used with my iPads, too. However, the
> 1818VSL worked here. Btw. both are using the same class compliant
> driver.
>
> Could it be that pulseaudio grabs the device on your machine?
>
> If you should need pulseaudio, you perhaps need to learn how to handle
> two sound servers for one install, if not consider to remove it.
>
> Regards,
> Ralf
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Re: Jack Problems

Holger Marzen
On Fri, 22 Mar 2019, [hidden email] wrote:

> I am moving to Motu which will really6 ease things up. The Presonus gear is
> not very well thought through, but it is not the problem here.

Good luck.

> I am hesitant to use jack as it almost never work consistently, pulseaudio at
> least works. If I uninstall pulseaudio I will lose all my bluetooth enabled
> ipads and galaxys etc. That works just great. Pulse has other problems being a
> systemd applicat5ion there is a lot of built in garbage I agree, but wihout it
> I dont think anything can take its place currently.

The problem isn't jack but the multitude of audio systems with Linux.

The biggest problem for a jack newbie is to reliably keep Pulsaudio away
from the audio adapter hardware. It grabs the adapter and then jackd
can't use it.

Solution:
Configure Pulseaudio NOT to use the soundcard but jack-sink and
jack-source, so it outputs to a running jackd.
There are many ways to do it. I use /etd/pulse/default.pa with

load-module module-jack-source
load-module module-jack-sink channels=2

The addition "channels=2" is important when you have an audio interface
with more than 2 channels, e.g. the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4. Without
"channels=2" the SoundCloud player sounds odd because Pulseaudio fiddles
around with the channels. Maybe there is another solution, too.

See http://marzen.de/Holger/pulseaudio_and_jack/

Regards
Holger
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Re: Jack Problems

liebrecht
Thank you Holger

I will work through this, I see what you mean.

If I can just get jack to have repeatable problems, then I can work with
it, but at the moment it all seems random.

Re Motu, it cuts my dependency on a specific OS and has a great web
based mixer, while it is usb complaiant with linux, Heaven! That way at
least I can cut my problems in half. I will still have the jack usb/midi
problems, but at least I have a rock solid os independent mixer option.
The 1818vsl is Do$e only and is a horrible flakey piece of software.
Huge upgrade. At least Motu is Linux friendly compared to most of the
other manufacturers, so I go that way.


On 2019-03-22 04:27, Holger Marzen wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Mar 2019, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> I am moving to Motu which will really6 ease things up. The Presonus
>> gear is
>> not very well thought through, but it is not the problem here.
>
> Good luck.
>
>> I am hesitant to use jack as it almost never work consistently,
>> pulseaudio at
>> least works. If I uninstall pulseaudio I will lose all my bluetooth
>> enabled
>> ipads and galaxys etc. That works just great. Pulse has other problems
>> being a
>> systemd applicat5ion there is a lot of built in garbage I agree, but
>> wihout it
>> I dont think anything can take its place currently.
>
> The problem isn't jack but the multitude of audio systems with Linux.
>
> The biggest problem for a jack newbie is to reliably keep Pulsaudio
> away
> from the audio adapter hardware. It grabs the adapter and then jackd
> can't use it.
>
> Solution:
> Configure Pulseaudio NOT to use the soundcard but jack-sink and
> jack-source, so it outputs to a running jackd.
> There are many ways to do it. I use /etd/pulse/default.pa with
>
> load-module module-jack-source
> load-module module-jack-sink channels=2
>
> The addition "channels=2" is important when you have an audio interface
> with more than 2 channels, e.g. the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4. Without
> "channels=2" the SoundCloud player sounds odd because Pulseaudio
> fiddles
> around with the channels. Maybe there is another solution, too.
>
> See http://marzen.de/Holger/pulseaudio_and_jack/
>
> Regards
> Holger
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Re: Jack Problems

Holger Marzen
On Fri, 22 Mar 2019, [hidden email] wrote:

> Re Motu, it cuts my dependency on a specific OS and has a great web based
> mixer, while it is usb complaiant with linux, Heaven!

It's not always that easy.

See
https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17605&p=103058
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Re: Jack Problems

liebrecht
Here are some:

I know several people who use the ultralite in studio and on linux and
they have much less trouble. The ultralite is the key to the entire
Motu/Linux path.

You use the Ultralite as your usb interface with everything else
motu/AVB. then from the ultralite by avb to everything Motu has to
offer, stagemixers etc.

If the ultralite works with Linux, then all other functionality through
AVB works if Linux drivers/software is up to the faster rate of the Motu
compared to Presonus.
I have confirmed several times that the ultralite is a way way better
option on Linux from several users actually using it in studio. I take
my advice from actual studio use producing commercial results and listen
to what those people say rather than just heresay.

1)
a) MOTU Can do stage mixing independent from OS, with Web based Mixer. I
dont have to work on buggy Do$e with a usb connection at all.
b) Presonus 1818VSL on Windows crashed several times with me on windows
while recording !

2)
a) Motu No Mixer startup issues reported on Motu browser based mixer.
You connect with a browser and thats it.

b) With 1818VSL, if you start studio one/stagemixer then 1818vsl doesnt
work -period.
Procedure: You have to cycle power on 1818VSL , then go to setup, then
go to 96kHZ, it still doesnt work, then go to 44.1kHz, then it works.
Absolutely blatantly stupid working with it on windows. The Studio
software cannot even initialize its own hardware on windows on several
windows distros I had. How about is that?

3)
Motu: I verified that browser based Motu works at whatever rate you want
as the rate setting and routing is obviously inside the Motu device.
Presonus seemingly is USB and connection dependent and everything
seemingly tries to route over USB to studio one. Thats what it looks
like, giving the consequences I experienced.
On Linux the 1818 VSL can work at most higher rates. Alsa reports 48kHz.
On windows 1818VSL with its own software cannot work at higher rate than
44.1kHz on any distro of windows I tried. - go figure. This has been so
since onset tested over several Windows distros. I can work on Linux at
a higher rate than on windows which I always found curious.

4) OS independent performers level mixes by wifi or network.
Presonus, never to my knowledge even came close attempting this.

5) USB compliance seems to be way better than Presonus. Since you will
be using the Stagemixer through an Ultralite with USB, and several  
people confirmed the Ultralite works great with Linux on USB, at least
better than the Presonus 1818VSL, using the stagemixer becomes trivially
the same as issues with the Ultralite.

6) Up to 100ft AVB connection between Stagemixer and Ultralite, then
ultralite USB. Most rugged system we currently can have for Linux.
I couldnt find something remotely similar with presonus that can work
with linux.

7) With 6) I have still the ethernet/Browser mixer on Motu I can use
also, thus redundancy. No such redundancy with the 1818vsl, or any
presonus I dont own that I read up on in my opinion.

8) Way better preamps on Motu in my opinion.

9) I dont care if the effects plugin on the Motu browser mixer sucks.
Anyone who uses plugins live looks for trouble. I use hardware
echo/reverb.
Rugged as hell. All you need is that the preamps are the best it can be
from the mixer and that you can route to external hardware. No problem
with Motu.

10) I use USB for recording only on Linux at the same time I use the
network/browser based mixer for live mixing through ethernet..
I couldnt find this possible with presonus. There is no way with
presonus to run the Studio mixer and have USB connection concurrently to
linux.
Absolutely no contest.

11) From what I find, if users have sudden problems with Motu like
buffer overruns etc they did not have with presonus, it is because you
now suddenly have the ability to do 96kHz on Linux where with the
presonus I could never get to work above 48kHZ. If I could, I would have
had a lot of trouble at 96kHz due to the higher data rate. So the xrun
errors and stuff they report with motu should be put in contect that the
presonus in my opinion doesnt do 96kHZ so there is no comparison of the
level of problems as rates are not equal.

So in short there is no contest.. even close.
If you want to discuss Linux issues with Motu, then it all boils down to
Linux issues with Ultralite as that is your interface to the entire Motu
system and products. As I mentioned I get way more positive feedback
from Motu studio users with Linux compared to Presonus.
Above all I will rather use Motu as I will always be able to work
regardless of Linux issues. There is always another option and
redundancy with Motu.

My experience with 1818vsl on windows is way more troublesome in the
long run than any jack issues I can have.

Most importantly. Motu is always willing to help you get something that
will work with Linux and at least acknowledges Linux. Not so with
Presonus. So why even bother.


AFAIK no contest.









On 2019-03-22 11:57, Holger Marzen wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Mar 2019, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> Re Motu, it cuts my dependency on a specific OS and has a great web
>> based
>> mixer, while it is usb complaiant with linux, Heaven!
>
> It's not always that easy.
>
> See
> https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17605&p=103058
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Re: Jack Problems

liebrecht
In reply to this post by Holger Marzen
Holger, I have a question regarding your very good instructions below.

As far as I know Alsa handles all the 1818VSL and other USB interface
connections..
How is that going to influence my abilty to use audio interfaces as now
alsa wont be able to access the usb ports directly when I follow the
link advice you included in your message. If I understand it right


Otherwise

I will write a script with a rollback section so that other people dont
have to battle with jack unnecessarily which is currently the case.

I will try to do something constructive for jack, and hopes it will
solve my problem. If it does I will post the script. There is just about
NotHING available to help new jack users unless they come here.






On 2019-03-22 04:27, Holger Marzen wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Mar 2019, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> I am moving to Motu which will really6 ease things up. The Presonus
>> gear is
>> not very well thought through, but it is not the problem here.
>
> Good luck.
>
>> I am hesitant to use jack as it almost never work consistently,
>> pulseaudio at
>> least works. If I uninstall pulseaudio I will lose all my bluetooth
>> enabled
>> ipads and galaxys etc. That works just great. Pulse has other problems
>> being a
>> systemd applicat5ion there is a lot of built in garbage I agree, but
>> wihout it
>> I dont think anything can take its place currently.
>
> The problem isn't jack but the multitude of audio systems with Linux.
>
> The biggest problem for a jack newbie is to reliably keep Pulsaudio
> away
> from the audio adapter hardware. It grabs the adapter and then jackd
> can't use it.
>
> Solution:
> Configure Pulseaudio NOT to use the soundcard but jack-sink and
> jack-source, so it outputs to a running jackd.
> There are many ways to do it. I use /etd/pulse/default.pa with
>
> load-module module-jack-source
> load-module module-jack-sink channels=2
>
> The addition "channels=2" is important when you have an audio interface
> with more than 2 channels, e.g. the Focusrite Scarlett 2i4. Without
> "channels=2" the SoundCloud player sounds odd because Pulseaudio
> fiddles
> around with the channels. Maybe there is another solution, too.
>
> See http://marzen.de/Holger/pulseaudio_and_jack/
>
> Regards
> Holger
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Re: Jack Problems

Chris Caudle
> There is just about
> NotHING available to help new jack users unless they come here.

There are the FAQ pages at the main jackaudio web site:

http://jackaudio.org/faq/pulseaudio_and_jack.html

https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_PulseOnJack

--
Chris Caudle


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Re: Jack Problems

liebrecht
Hi Chris dont view the following answer in a negative light, the jack
folks are great and doe3nst deserve any criticism other than usability
for newcombers.

I have read those links  till my eyes bled and completely borked a
previous system for reasons I still dont know. It is really detailed
information that will not help at user level at all. Developers can use
it but users not really.
It is not concise enough and doesnt cover the entire spectrum of what
jack does. Reading that a user has an even less clear view of what jack
is or does. We dont need essays we need tangible scriptable solutions.

Just my experience...not a flame.

After using Folgers advice to get pulse to use jack, strange things now
happen. Sound disappeared as Pulse obviously couldnt start, but it
causes a huge jack issue it seems after adding load-module
module-jack-source
load-module module-jack-sink channels=2 to default.pa.


pulseaudio
W: [pulseaudio] pid.c: Stale PID file, overwriting.
E: [pulseaudio] module-alsa-card.c: Failed to find a working profile.
E: [pulseaudio] module.c: Failed to load module "module-alsa-card"
(argument: "device_id="1" name="usb-M-Audio_USB_Uno_MIDI_Interface-00"
card_name="alsa_card.usb-M-Audio_USB_Uno_MIDI_Interface-00"
namereg_fail=false tsched=yes fixed_latency_range=no ignore_dB=no
deferred_volume=yes use_ucm=yes
card_properties="module-udev-detect.discovered=1""): initialization
failed.
W: [pulseaudio] sink.c: Default and alternate sample rates are the same.
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server socket err = No such file or directory<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server request channel<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server socket err = No such file or directory<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server request channel<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server socket err = No such file or directory<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server request channel<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server socket err = No such file or directory<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server request channel<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server socket err = No such file or directory<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server request channel<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server socket err = No such file or directory<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >Cannot connect to
server request channel<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error >jack server is not
running or cannot be started<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error
 >JackShmReadWritePtr::~JackShmReadWritePtr - Init not done for -1, skipping unlock<
W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: JACK error
 >JackShmReadWritePtr::~JackShmReadWritePtr - Init not done for -1, skipping unlock<
E: [pulseaudio] module-jack-source.c: jack_client_open() failed.
E: [pulseaudio] module.c: Failed to load module "module-jack-source"
(argument: ""): initialization failed.
E: [pulseaudio] main.c: Module load failed.
E: [pulseaudio] main.c: Failed to initialize daemon.







On 2019-03-22 15:35, Chris Caudle wrote:
>> There is just about
>> NotHING available to help new jack users unless they come here.
>
> There are the FAQ pages at the main jackaudio web site:
>
> http://jackaudio.org/faq/pulseaudio_and_jack.html
>
> https://github.com/jackaudio/jackaudio.github.com/wiki/WalkThrough_User_PulseOnJack
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Re: Jack Problems

Chris Caudle
On Fri, March 22, 2019 2:43 pm, [hidden email] wrote:
> Hi Chris dont view the following answer in a negative light, the jack
> folks are great and doe3nst deserve any criticism other than usability
> for newcombers.

That is why the official Ardour recommendation is now use the built in
ALSA backend, jackd is for expert use only.

> After using Folgers advice to get pulse to use jack, strange things now
> happen.

Seems to complain that there is no jack server available.  Likely
pulseaudio was started before jackd, so the pulse-jack modules have no
jack server to make the connection.

--
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Re: Jack Problems

liebrecht
Dont want to sound disrespectful, but I need to ask.

Who are the experts that will be using Jack.

I havent been on an audio related usergroup where anything positive has
been said (except largely what I posted) about jack. By large 95% of
users complain about jack.

If I can find some of these experts it will go a long way to figure out
how to actually use it in reality. But I found none on the 10s of
usergroups related to audio that I subscribe to. It is always complaints
about jack. I myself have been using Linux since 97 and did a lot of
unix and assembler programming before 97.
I wrote some of the most complex numerical software on Linux for
clusters. I am well educated with three postgraduate degrees one of
which is numerical methods. Audio has been a lifelong interest, and
still is semi-professionally as I have been a performing musician my
entire life.

If I cannot make sense of it and become an "expert" who will unless they
have special information. Do the expert study the coded, basically
become a developer. ?

With software, a lack of proper specification and scriptable advice,
leads to no one being able to come to grips unless they go study the
code - even if the application is dead simple. I dont want to do that
and shouldnt need to as just need to be a user in this case that wants
to become an expert if possible.




On 2019-03-22 17:07, Chris Caudle wrote:
>
> That is why the official Ardour recommendation is now use the built in
> ALSA backend, jackd is for expert use only.
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Re: Jack Problems

Chris Caudle
In reply to this post by Chris Caudle
On Fri, March 22, 2019 5:30 pm, [hidden email] wrote:
> Who are the experts that will be using Jack.

If you search through the linux audio users mail list archives you will
find plenty of posts with help for new users of jack.
But as you say:
> [doesn't] deserve any criticism other than usability for newcombers

That is a valid complaint.  The problem is somewhat difficult to solve,
partly because the problem being solved is complicated, partly because on
most linux distributions the default audio  configuration is set for
playing back audio, not producing audio.

> By large 95% of users complain about jack.

Do you know why those users are using jack?  Ardour has supported using
ALSA directly for quite a while, I believe Qtractor and LMMS do as well.
Do those users need the ability to route between applications which jack
provides?

> If I can find some of these experts it will go a long way to figure out
> how to actually use it in reality. But I found none on the 10s of
> usergroups related to audio that I subscribe to.

10's of usergroups?  Did you start with linux-audio-users?  That is the
primary location for audio on linux information.

> about jack. I myself have been using Linux since 97 and did a lot of
> unix and assembler programming before 97.

I am actually a little surprised to find you have been using linux for so
long, there was a lot of basic information missing in your original email
which I would expect an experienced user to provide out of habit.
For example, your first email did not specify
- which operating system you were using (jackd runs on 3).
- later you indicated linux; which distribution?  Which version?
- which version of jackd and pulseaudio?

You provided partial information from qjackctl:
qjackctl reports the following.
Cannot connect to server socket err = No such file or directory
...

But did not provide the full output of the "Messages" window of qjackctl.
For example, when qjackctl attempts to start jackd you should see the full
command line which is used:
19:22:09.341 JACK is starting...
19:22:09.341 /usr/bin/jackd -P70 -t2000 -dalsa -dhw:Lambda -r48000 -p1024
-n3 -zt -I376 -O376

The output of jackd follows from there.  "Cannot connect to server" type
messages are common as jackd initially starts.

You can also copy that command line and start jackd from a terminal so
that you can see the startup messages being printed in real time.

> I am hesitant to use jack as it almost never work consistently,
> pulseaudio at least works.

That is probably part of the problem.  The way that pulseaudio ensures it
works is starting early and locking exclusive access of the primary ALSA
device.  Recent versions give up control gracefully, for many years now on
Fedora I have had no problems at all starting  jackd with either qjackctl
or from the command line, the version of pulseaudio shipped by fedora
gives up control of the audio device when jackd requests, and when I stop
jackd then pulseaudio takes control again.  Knowing which distribution you
use may make it easier for someone to help.  Ubuntu typically breaks audio
production software frequently, but there are optional repositories to
help with that.

> it is difficult for me to
> understand jack as it has no consistent specification

I am not sure I understand this complaint.  Do you have an example of
something in the man page or help output you find inconsistent?  The
different backends available and the way that there are arguments to the
main jack server and separate arguments for the backend driver can be
confusing.  Is that what you are referring to?

> what is the exact mechanism by which pulse
> interfere with jack

The pulseaudio server will open an ALSA device for exclusive access, but
jackd also needs to open the ALSA device for exclusive access.  Obviously
only one server at a time can have exclusive access to a particular
driver.   Most modern versions of pulseaudio that I am familiar with using
on Fedora Linux do not have that problem, but as you gave no indication of
which linux distribution, which pulseaudio version, or which jackd version
you are using it is difficult to say more than "works for me."
jack-audio-connection-kit-1.9.12-6.fc29.x86_64
pulseaudio-12.2-1.fc29.x86_64
qjackctl-0.5.5-2.fc29.x86_64

> As I understand it jack should be an either/or/add
> switch for audio streams

I do not understand exactly what you are trying to convey.  I think of
jackd more like a patch bay for routing audio within the OS.  Is that just
a different way of saying the same thing you wrote there?

> I found that jack seemingly does not really do direct hardware access

Of course not, it has been a principle of general purpose operating
systems for well over five decades that user space programs do not
directly access hardware, the operating system kernel mediates access to
the hardware.

> which further complicates things

On the contrary it simplifies things.  It would be wasteful and error
prone if the jack project had to duplicate the work done in the linux
kernel audio drivers.  It also gives a clear boundary to check basic audio
functionality using ALSA utilities (such as aplay and arecord) separately
from the routing and patch bay functionality of jackd.

> If it in principle rely on alsa then those interfaces needs to be
> very well documented how it communicates with
> alsa, what the exceptions and conditions are etc.

ALSA has an API, jackd also has an API, but I don't get the impression
that is what you mean.
The method that jackd uses to communicate with ALSA devices is the same as
every audio software which supports ALSA, including pulseaudio, audacity,
Ardour, etc.  I am not really sure what you mean there, perhaps copying
the actual output from jackd when it has an error will allow someone to
help you by pointing out the messages which indicate why jackd could not
start.

> if there was e.g. just a hard patchbay application that would replace
jack I would
> use it in an instant. It would not be elegant but would clearly route
> signals by hand.

That is basically what jackd is.  Having multiple audio interfaces
complicates the situation, having multiple sound servers (e.g. jack and
pulseaudio) complicates the situation.  If you have a machine with only
one audio interface and no other audio servers running just start jackd
and it will work.  Once your  machine setup gets more complicated than
that then any sound server will require you to make some configuration
choices.

One thing which may in the future prove useful to you is the Red Hat
pipewire project.  The aim of that project is to make a single server
which combines the features of pulseaudio and jackd, and also provides
similar features for video, running as the default media server for
Fedora.  That final working solution is still some time in the future, but
sounds like it should be what you are looking for in terms of default
working setup with only minimal configuration required.

> That is maybe what is needed until jack becomes user friendly

I am reminded of a quip about Unix operating systems: "Unix is user
friendly, it is just very picky about who it makes friends with."

> Isnt there at least some for of user debug frontend for jack that can
> point to the errors

Start jackd from the command line, copy and paste the output messages to
an email so that someone can have hope of helping you.  So far you have a
lot of complaints but not much information.

Regarding the question you asked of Holger:
> How is that going to influence my abilty to use audio interfaces as now
> alsa wont be able to access the usb ports directly when I follow the
> link advice you included in your message. If I understand it right

No, you misunderstood what the instructions were doing.  They were
essentially making sure pulseaudio did not  start automatically, setting
up jackd as the  main audio server, launching pulse with the jack
interface module as the audio interface instead of ALSA, and also
secondarily setting up an ALSA pseudo-device which exposed a jack port as
an ALSA device for software which attempts to use ALSA directly.  I find
that almost all current software versions support pulse, so the ALSA setup
is not needed.

Note that in my opinion if you need those instructions, your chosen linux
distribution has not done a good job configuring the audio software
provided in the distribution repositories.  I don't want to be too
repetitive, but in Fedora none of that is necessary, just start jackd and
it works.  You will probably need to load the jack modules in pulseaudio,
but that may work by default now. I am not sure, I have had a modified
pulse configuration file in my user directory for so long I am not
positive of some of the current default behavior.

--
Chris Caudle


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Re: Jack Problems

Bengt Gördén-3
In reply to this post by liebrecht
On 2019-03-22 23:30, [hidden email] wrote:
> Who are the experts that will be using Jack.

That would be the experts on Jack.

Anyway. A couple of month ago you asked about advice to chose a Linux
distribution for audio purposes. I believe you chose AVLinux. It might
be a good idea to check out some other distros and preferably one you
can boot and run from USB/DVD (live).

I've been using Slackware, RedHat, Gentoo, Jacklab, Opensuse and now
Ubuntustudio for audio. All having their pros and cons during the years.
Ubuntustudio, while it's not a perfect distro it suits my need at the
moment, and does boot it's iso in live-mode. And for what it's worth it
was the first distro that I've been able to install and just run without
a hassle in regards to audio distro.

https://ubuntustudio.org/download

Another suggestion would be to ask advice on the AVLinux forum. It seems
to me that your problem is more a distro specific problem than a jackd
one. I might be wrong though.

Cheers,


--
/bengan
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Re: Jack Problems

Ralf Mardorf
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 08:26:45 +0100, Bengt Gördén wrote:
>https://ubuntustudio.org/download 

Hi,

a while back I wrote a script to download the Ubuntu flavours that were
available that time and to automatically check the downloaded ISO
against the signed checksum. It still works.

Save the script, then make it executable by

cd /location/where/the/script/is/stored
chown username:username luamd64_1610.sh

(usually running  chown 1000:1000 luamd64_1610.sh  should do the job,
too)

after that you could run the script, e.g.

./luamd64_1610.sh ubuntustudio 18.10

to get a verified ubuntustudio 18.10.

Regards,
Ralf

--
pacman -Q linux{,-rt{-pussytoes,-cornflower,,-securityink}}|cut -d\  -f2
5.0.3.arch1-1
5.0.3_rt1-0
4.19.25_rt16-0
4.19.23_rt13-0.1
4.19.15_rt12-0

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Re: Jack Problems

Ralf Mardorf
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 08:52:57 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

>On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 08:26:45 +0100, Bengt Gördén wrote:
>>https://ubuntustudio.org/download   
>
>Hi,
>
>a while back I wrote a script to download the Ubuntu flavours that were
>available that time and to automatically check the downloaded ISO
>against the signed checksum. It still works.
>
>Save the script, then make it executable by
>
>cd /location/where/the/script/is/stored
>chown username:username luamd64_1610.sh
>
>(usually running  chown 1000:1000 luamd64_1610.sh  should do the job,
>too)

My apologies,

I'm still half asleep :D, it's early in the morning. To make it
executable run

chmod a+x luamd64_1610.sh
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Re: Jack Problems

Holger Marzen
In reply to this post by liebrecht
On Fri, 22 Mar 2019, [hidden email] wrote:

> Holger, I have a question regarding your very good instructions below.
>
> As far as I know Alsa handles all the 1818VSL and other USB interface
> connections..
> How is that going to influence my abilty to use audio interfaces as now alsa
> wont be able to access the usb ports directly when I follow the link advice
> you included in your message. If I understand it right

ALSA has "2 levels": The low level stuff, "the driver", and high level
stuff "the API for clients".

If you have an USB interface then jackd uses the ALSA driver, iow
"backend": jackd -dalsa ...

Without Pulseaudio you can redirect ALSA clients to jackd via
~./asoundrc or system wide files:

-- snip ---
pcm.!default {
    type plug
    slave { pcm "rawjack" }
}

pcm.rawjack {
    type jack
    playback_ports {
        0 system:playback_1
        1 system:playback_2
    }
    capture_ports {
        0 system:capture_1
        1 system:capture_2
    }
}

pcm.jack {
    type plug
    slave { pcm "rawjack" }
    hint {
    description "JACK Audio Connection Kit"
    }
}
-- snap --

So jackd can "own" the card and ALSA-clients can use the ALSA-API.

When Pulseaudio is installed there will be a similar redirection
installed, systemwide. All ALSA-clients are redirected to Pulseaudio.
If Pulseaudio outputs to jackd then all clients can output their sound.

jack-client -> jackd -> audio interface
pulseaudio-client -> Pulseaudio -> jackd -> audio interface
ALSA-client -> Pulseaudio -> jackd -> audio interface

You have all the benefits and you can record the sound of Youtube videos
or SoundClout with Audacity if you choose the correct jackd-port.

You can even have several jack_thru instances to have "fixpoints" where
you can tap the signal.

I run a jack_thru named "main" (1st arg) as central point where I can
tap the signal. Here an example with a running Qtractor:

http://marzen.de/tmp/jack_flow_simple.png

This way I have ALWAYS that central point regardless if and how many
audio applications are running.

To maintain the connections of started applications I have jack-plumbing
active with the following ruleset ~/.jack-plumbing
As you can see in the last lines: Whenever I start ebumeter it gets
automagically connection to "main" (a jack_thru instance) and processes
every client's audio since every client will be redirected to "main".

If you have more questions that might not be of interest for the whole
mailing list you can email me directly.

My other PC in the home studio has a more complicated setup since I use
2 jackd instances: one with a big latency for Qtractor sessions and one
with a small latency for Guitarix, which sends its analog output to the
first.

-- snip --
(connect "main:output_1" "system:playback_1")
(connect "main:output_2" "system:playback_2")
(disconnect "system:capture_.*" "main:input_.*")

(connect    "alsa-jack\..*jackP\..*:out_000" "main:input_1")
(connect    "alsa-jack\..*jackP\..*:out_001" "main:input_2")
(disconnect "alsa-jack\..*jackP\..*:out_.*" "system:playback_.*")

(connect    "Clementine:out_jackaudiosink-.*_1" "main:input_1")
(connect    "Clementine:out_jackaudiosink-.*_2" "main:input_2")
(disconnect "Clementine:out_jackaudiosink-.*" "system:playback_.*")

(connect    "Qtractor:Master/out_1" "main:input_1")
(connect    "Qtractor:Master/out_2" "main:input_2")
(disconnect "Qtractor:Master/out_.*" "system:playback_.*")

(connect    "ardour:Master/audio_out 1" "main:input_1")
(connect    "ardour:Master/audio_out 2" "main:input_2")
(disconnect "ardour:Master/audio_out.*" "system:playback_.*")

(connect    "MPlayer.*:out_0" "main:input_1")
(connect    "MPlayer.*:out_1" "main:input_2")
(disconnect "MPlayer.*:out_.*" "system:playback_.*")

(connect    "PortAudio:out_.*[13579]" "main:input_2")
(connect    "PortAudio:out_.*[02468]" "main:input_1")
(disconnect "PortAudio:out_.*" "system:playback_.*")

(connect    "PulseAudio.*:front-left"  "main:input_1")
(connect    "PulseAudio.*:front-right" "main:input_2")
(disconnect "PulseAudio.*:.*" "system:playback_.*")

(connect "netjack:capture_1" "main:input_1")
(connect "netjack:capture_2" "main:input_2")

(connect "main:output_1" "ebumeter:in.L")
(connect "main:output_2" "ebumeter:in.R")
-- snap --
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Re: Jack Problems

Holger Marzen
In reply to this post by liebrecht
On Fri, 22 Mar 2019, [hidden email] wrote:

> I havent been on an audio related usergroup where anything positive has been
> said (except largely what I posted) about jack. By large 95% of users complain
> about jack.

Many people can't handle if they get too many screws they can turn. They
see Windows, they can increase the buffer size and not more, they are
happy.

But that should be no reason to distribute a "simplejackd" that's
hardcoded to use the ALSA backend, 2 buffers and the same audio adapter
for in and out.

> If I cannot make sense of it and become an "expert" who will unless they have
> special information. Do the expert study the coded, basically become a
> developer. ?
>
> With software, a lack of proper specification and scriptable advice, leads to
> no one being able to come to grips unless they go study the code - even if the
> application is dead simple. I dont want to do that and shouldnt need to as
> just need to be a user in this case that wants to become an expert if
> possible.

As I wrote before: Most of the confusion results in the many audio
architectures available for Linux. That's one of the reasons for audio
oriented Linux distributions.

But the other way (using my main PC for audio, too) is possible. I did
it and after I understood that Pulsaudio can be a problem I configured
it to

- not autospawn
- output via jackd

and start a script automaticall when logging in that handles it all for
me. There are many, many other ways to do it but I am a more technical
guy and want it simple and reproducable.

-- snip --

#!/bin/bash

FREQ=48000
BUFFERS=2
PERIODS=128
PRIO=90

killall -9 pulseaudio
killall -9 jackd
killall -9 alsa_out
killall -9 jack_mixer
killall -9 jack_thru
killall -9 jack-plumbing

sleep 1

aplay -l | grep CODEC 2>&1 >/dev/null
RC=$?

if [ $RC = 0 ]
then
  HW=CODEC
else
  aplay -l | grep USB 2>&1 >/dev/null
  RC=$?
 
  if [ $RC = 0 ]
  then
    HW=USB
  else
    HW=PCH
  fi
fi

/usr/bin/jackd -P$PRIO -p512 -t2000 -dalsa \
  -r$FREQ -p$PERIODS -n$BUFFERS -Xseq -dhw:$HW \
  >/tmp/jackd-hm.log 2>&1 &
JACKPID=$!

jack_wait -w

pulseaudio --exit-idle-time=-1 -D
PULSEPID=$!

sleep 1

jack_thru main &
JACKTHRUPID=$!

xfce4-terminal -T jack-plumbing -e ~/scripts/jack-plumbing.sh &
JACKPLUMBINGPID=$!

wait
-- snap --
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