[Jack-Devel] stepping down

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[Jack-Devel] stepping down

Paul Davis
Sometime in the next two weeks, I will find the time to deal with a variety of pull requests for JACK 1, update some articles on jackaudio.org (notably FAQ stuff), and do a new release of JACK 1.

This will be my last work on JACK. The time has come for me to step down from my role as "benign dictator (and jack1 maintainer)". There several reasons for this:

  * most linux distributions use JACK2 as their default, so JACK1's relevance has diminished. I
    still believe JACK1 to be a superior choice from some technical perspectives, but there is
    no doubt that JACK2's integration with dbus and thus its interoperability with PulseAudio
    has made this the safe and simpler choice for Linux.

 * I really don't have the time to even think about things related to JACK these days. It does
   any future development a disservice to have me as the bottleneck, which I effectively am
   at the moment.

 * Because 110% of my time is spent on Ardour, the fact that Ardour now has non-JACK
   audio/MIDI I/O options has diminished the significance of JACK for my own work.
  
 * as the years have gone on, although I am still delighted by the technical quality and
   the conception of JACK, I no longer think that it is a particularly good idea for most users. There
   are times when it is useful

I will continue to pay for the hosting of jackaudio.org (even though JACK2 continues to be distributed, managed and communicated about via other channels), although if someone wanted to migrate this to some other more communitarian platform, we could look into that.

I would be happy if someone volunteered to step up as maintainer of JACK1. It would obviously be even better if someone was willing to take the big leap to JACK3, a version that combines all the best parts of JACK1 and JACK2, but I think it is more realistic to accept at this point that this is not going to happen.

If nobody does step up, then there is a good chance that JACK1 will become officially unmaintained. This isn't of much consequence, because once the latest pull requests are merged, there won't be any known bugs in the code, and also because not many people use it anymore. This also means, of course, that "maintainer" is not much of a task, should someone feel hesitant about taking it on.

--p


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Re: stepping down

Joakim Hernberg-2
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 11:13:06 -0500
Paul Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This will be my last work on JACK. The time has come for me to step
> down from my role as "benign dictator (and jack1 maintainer)". There
> several reasons for this:

Sorry to hear about that (as a jack1 user).  I thank you for all your
work and wish you all the best with future endeavors!


--

   Joakim
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Re: stepping down

Benjamin Schmaus
+ jack-devel

pls see question for Paul below.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 8:48 AM Benjamin Schmaus <[hidden email]> wrote:
 as the years have gone on, although I am still delighted by the technical quality and 
   the conception of JACK, I no longer think that it is a particularly good idea for most users. There
   are times when it is useful

Could you elaborate on this?  Curious to know more.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 8:39 AM Joakim Hernberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jan 2016 11:13:06 -0500
Paul Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This will be my last work on JACK. The time has come for me to step
> down from my role as "benign dictator (and jack1 maintainer)". There
> several reasons for this:

Sorry to hear about that (as a jack1 user).  I thank you for all your
work and wish you all the best with future endeavors!


--

   Joakim
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Re: stepping down

Filipe Coelho
In reply to this post by Paul Davis
On 30.01.2016 17:13, Paul Davis wrote:
Sometime in the next two weeks, I will find the time to deal with a variety of pull requests for JACK 1, update some articles on jackaudio.org (notably FAQ stuff), and do a new release of JACK 1.

Great!
Does this include the latest patch from Fons too?


This will be my last work on JACK. The time has come for me to step down from my role as "benign dictator (and jack1 maintainer)".

Can't say I'm surprised.
JACK development has been slowly decreasing in activity.
We have working meta-data in jack1 now at least, thanks for that!


I would be happy if someone volunteered to step up as maintainer of JACK1.

I'd be happy to take care of the maintenance of the code (making sure it works on new distros, dealing with pull requests, etc).
But only if someone else is willing to handle the non-coding parts, like the website.


It would obviously be even better if someone was willing to take the big leap to JACK3, a version that combines all the best parts of JACK1 and JACK2, but I think it is more realistic to accept at this point that this is not going to happen.

I think the ideal case would be to combine both pulseaudio and jack in a single API that allows both realtime/producer-oriented plus consumer-oriented applications.
Having pulseaudio give up the soundcard for JACK is nice and all, but users get very confused why their sound mixer suddently stops working...



Anyway, I got a question for you Paul.
What do you think about the jack1 dbus patch?
Having that in would allow to have the same dbus tricks jack2 uses for pulseaudio.
I know you don't truly agree on how it was done, but since you're stepping down I know there's very little chance the "proper" way will get done.


And Nedko, if you're reading this, are you willing to finish the jack1 dbus integration if Paul agrees with its inclusion?


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Re: stepping down

Paul Davis
In reply to this post by Benjamin Schmaus


On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Benjamin Schmaus <[hidden email]> wrote:
+ jack-devel

pls see question for Paul below.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 8:48 AM Benjamin Schmaus <[hidden email]> wrote:
 as the years have gone on, although I am still delighted by the technical quality and 
   the conception of JACK, I no longer think that it is a particularly good idea for most users. There
   are times when it is useful

Could you elaborate on this?  Curious to know more.


JACK was developed in part because of the absence of a viable plugin API on Linux. It allowed people to "glue together" whole applications rather than load plugins into a host. This is pretty cool, no question. But the session management aspects of it are not that cool, and despite both the JACK session API and the Non session manager and other things that falktx (Filipe) have done, the situation for users really hasn't ever gotten to the point where reloading a "JACK session" comprised of many individual applications is as easy as it ought to be.

By contrast, we now have a fairly excellent plugin API (LV2) that is supported by several hosts, a number of which offer up quite different models of plugin loading, control, management and usage (Contrast, for example, Ardour, Carla, Qtractor, Non-foo and jalv). I think that most users are better served by developers creating LV2 plugins and the users loading them into one or more hosts of their choice (the so-called "monolithic environment" approach). This allows save+reload to be simple, fast, and reliable.

There will continue to be times when using JACK to glue together applications is still a really useful thing, and I hope that JACK will continue to be there to support those times. But I don't think JACK is generally the right solution for most users, most of the time. The one big positive it still offers: multiple applications can access the audio device at the same time, with low latency and synchronous behaviour. This is an important feature not offered by ALSA or PulseAudio, and for that reason alone, JACK remains important. It also the case that JACK is the only cross-platform system for doing inter-application audio.

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Re: stepping down

Paul Davis
In reply to this post by Filipe Coelho


On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 12:03 PM, Filipe Coelho <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 30.01.2016 17:13, Paul Davis wrote:
Sometime in the next two weeks, I will find the time to deal with a variety of pull requests for JACK 1, update some articles on jackaudio.org (notably FAQ stuff), and do a new release of JACK 1.

Great!
Does this include the latest patch from Fons too?

It will, yes.
 

I'd be happy to take care of the maintenance of the code (making sure it works on new distros, dealing with pull requests, etc).
But only if someone else is willing to handle the non-coding parts, like the website.

The website doesn't change much. The "Applications" page already has its own maintainer (though it also doesn't change much). I think you already have push access on github, so ... great.
 

Anyway, I got a question for you Paul.
What do you think about the jack1 dbus patch?
Having that in would allow to have the same dbus tricks jack2 uses for pulseaudio.
I know you don't truly agree on how it was done, but since you're stepping down I know there's very little chance the "proper" way will get done.

my objection was that i think the dbus integration should be in a separate process that uses the server control API to start/stop a JACK server.

at this point, i don't think that my objection is worth anything at all, even though i still believe that my conception (the one that came out of the 2007 "Berlin summit") is "more correct".

the reality is that nobody ever developed any other control protocols for JACK. there was talk of an OSC control app, but this never materialized. from a pragmatic perspective, dbus is the only control protocol that has ever emerged, and after many (many!) years in that condition, it makes sense to integrate that into the server itself.

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Re: stepping down

Michael
In reply to this post by Paul Davis

On 2016-01-30, at 10:04 AM, Paul Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Benjamin Schmaus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> + jack-devel
>
> pls see question for Paul below.
>
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 8:48 AM Benjamin Schmaus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  as the years have gone on, although I am still delighted by the technical quality and
>    the conception of JACK, I no longer think that it is a particularly good idea for most users. There
>    are times when it is useful
>
> Could you elaborate on this?  Curious to know more.
>
>
> JACK was developed in part because of the absence of a viable plugin API on Linux. It allowed people to "glue together" whole applications rather than load plugins into a host. This is pretty cool, no question. But the session management aspects of it are not that cool, and despite both the JACK session API and the Non session manager and other things that falktx (Filipe) have done, the situation for users really hasn't ever gotten to the point where reloading a "JACK session" comprised of many individual applications is as easy as it ought to be.
>
> By contrast, we now have a fairly excellent plugin API (LV2) that is supported by several hosts, a number of which offer up quite different models of plugin loading, control, management and usage (Contrast, for example, Ardour, Carla, Qtractor, Non-foo and jalv). I think that most users are better served by developers creating LV2 plugins and the users loading them into one or more hosts of their choice (the so-called "monolithic environment" approach). This allows save+reload to be simple, fast, and reliable.
>
> There will continue to be times when using JACK to glue together applications is still a really useful thing, and I hope that JACK will continue to be there to support those times. But I don't think JACK is generally the right solution for most users, most of the time. The one big positive it still offers: multiple applications can access the audio device at the same time, with low latency and synchronous behaviour. This is an important feature not offered by ALSA or PulseAudio, and for that reason alone, JACK remains important. It also the case that JACK is the only cross-platform system for doing inter-application audio.
> _______________________________________________
> Jack-Devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.jackaudio.org/listinfo.cgi/jack-devel-jackaudio.org

As a user, let me give you an entirely different viewpoint. I love Jack, and see no alternative, for this:

I can have different applications send audio output to different devices.

Almost all applications want to send audio to the default audio device. (Which makes sense, right?). So, with Jack, and no programs being jack-aware other than QJackCtl, I can tell all these different programs which device to use.

If you can name any alternative to this, please do. I am on a Mac.

Are there problems? Sure. Apple's stupidity of saying "Lets retrofit a security manager on something that was not designed for security", along with no way for users to adjust things, and "This is good enough for Apple's stuff, no user needs more than we say they can have", means that a lot of things can't make use of any audio when Jack is active. (Technically: The sandbox system, designed to put an additional layer of security beyond just file access rights or same user-ID, while having the goal of preventing a malicious program from doing something just because it has your user permissions, is adding a layer to a system that was not designed for it. So, you can, and do, get into situations where a program is denied the ability to talk to other programs by a public API because it's a network socket (seriously, a local-domain file system socket is denied by default), with no way for any user input/output tool (think human interface device for deaf, or disabled) to be registe
 red by the users as privileged. If you think I'm being crazy, look up "Dasher", consider how useful it would be for typing on a touch-screen tablet, and then realize that iOS basically blocks any input "device" like that, and the desktop is being locked down more and more.)

Sorry, end rant.


---
Entertaining minecraft videos
http://YouTube.com/keybounce

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Re: stepping down

Paul Davis


On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:

As a user, let me give you an entirely different viewpoint. I love Jack, and see no alternative, for this:

I can have different applications send audio output to different devices.

Almost all applications want to send audio to the default audio device. (Which makes sense, right?). So, with Jack, and no programs being jack-aware other than QJackCtl, I can tell all these different programs which device to use.

If you can name any alternative to this, please do. I am on a Mac.

CoreAudio can do all that. If you happen to be using applications naive/silly/stupid enough to not offer device options, then sure, JACK can help.

In addition, if you're on a Mac running OS X, you're almost certainly using JackOSX which means that the future/condition of JACK1 is of little consequence to you.



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Re: stepping down

Jörn Nettingsmeier-5
In reply to this post by Paul Davis
On 01/30/2016 07:04 PM, Paul Davis wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Benjamin Schmaus
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     + jack-devel
>
>     pls see question for Paul below.
>
>     On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 8:48 AM Benjamin Schmaus
>     <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>           as the years have gone on, although I am still delighted by
>         the technical quality and
>             the conception of JACK, I no longer think that it is a
>         particularly good idea for most users. There
>             are times when it is useful
>
>         Could you elaborate on this?  Curious to know more.
>
>
> JACK was developed in part because of the absence of a viable plugin API
> on Linux. It allowed people to "glue together" whole applications rather
> than load plugins into a host. This is pretty cool, no question. But the
> session management aspects of it are not that cool, and despite both the
> JACK session API and the Non session manager and other things that
> falktx (Filipe) have done, the situation for users really hasn't ever
> gotten to the point where reloading a "JACK session" comprised of many
> individual applications is as easy as it ought to be.

Just a very quick comment on this:

JACK makes Linux (and OS X) the best platform for highly innovative
immersive audio stuff and massive multichannel systems, by a huge
margin. It also makes it great for prototyping.
It's true that the necessity of JACK for the "simple project studio" has
diminished somewhat, but at the same time, linux audio has outgrown this
niche.

I routinely use jack-based systems for 3d audio rendering that have more
than 1k jack ports in use. True, it's somewhat messy, but the
corresponding amp racks, MADI and Dante links and shitloads of
loudspeakers are not exactly turn-key either.

I welcome the fact that a beginning ardour user does not have to master
jack anymore, in the same way that my sound engineering apprentice does
not have to master the rear side of the ampracks in order to get some
intermission music into the theatre. But for me anything that makes
linux audio interesting requires jack.

That said, your motives in stepping down are perfectly understandable.
But I don't agree with your assessment of JACK's importance.

--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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Re: stepping down

Markus Seeber
In reply to this post by Paul Davis
On 01/30/2016 07:09 PM, Paul Davis wrote:

>
> The website doesn't change much. The "Applications" page already has its
> own maintainer (though it also doesn't change much). I think you already
> have push access on github, so ... great.
>
>

The lack of change and improvement on the website...
Well, I'll take the blame on me for that.

In the past, I had a vision but my motivation to support the website
kind of drowned due to various reasons. Some are similar observations
like Paul's, some are related to the complicated situation JACK (as an
API AND it's implementations) is in and there is also that damn thing
called "life" that keeps happening to me, very distracting.

Basically, I realised, that JACK is dead, maybe not yet the software,
but as a project and that is frustrating. The more I research about JACK
the more tired and sad I get, especially the inevitable aging of the
software and so on... the usual stuff that software developers have to
deal with. (see attachment for a little smile)

That may sound very negative (because I am currently very negative about
that) and I am not willing to contribute to JACK (1/2/API tools/homepage
and in general) anymore unless someone can provide a positive and
realistic vision for the project that is beyond milking the dead cow for
another 4 or 5 years.

I can check and merge pull requests, communicate and provide help
regarding the homepage if someone want's to take over but I won't put
significant effort in a website of which I have the feeling nobody cares
about and represents a dead project.

Well, enough rant and with the disclaimer that this is just from a
personal and very limited perspective on things.

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Re: stepping down

Michael
In reply to this post by Paul Davis

On 2016-01-30, at 10:58 AM, Paul Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:

As a user, let me give you an entirely different viewpoint. I love Jack, and see no alternative, for this:

I can have different applications send audio output to different devices.

Almost all applications want to send audio to the default audio device. (Which makes sense, right?). So, with Jack, and no programs being jack-aware other than QJackCtl, I can tell all these different programs which device to use.

If you can name any alternative to this, please do. I am on a Mac.

CoreAudio can do all that. If you happen to be using applications naive/silly/stupid enough to not offer device options, then sure, JACK can help.

In addition, if you're on a Mac running OS X, you're almost certainly using JackOSX which means that the future/condition of JACK1 is of little consequence to you.

This is true. I did not realize it was just the Jack1 version being discussed when I wrote my last message; all I saw was Jack going dead.

As for applications that don't offer device options, can you show me any program from Apple that does? Quicktime Player, Mail's sounds, Safari playing HTML5, at least Terminal's beeps use the error device instead of the normal output device, etc. -- all use the default audio output. So do many if not most third-party apps. Firefox, Flash player, heck Dish Anywhere's custom plugin, etc. Etc.

It's easier to list what does support other audio devices. Vlc, MPlayer, OBS, the screen recorder I use, Teamspeak, ... umm ... what else?


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Re: stepping down

Thomas Brand
In reply to this post by Markus Seeber
Hi,
i find it a bit sad that anyone seems to say things like "JACK is dead"
easily--- There is no alternative to it IMHO
Please, JACK lovers, speak out!


On Sat, January 30, 2016 23:30, Markus Seeber wrote:

> On 01/30/2016 07:09 PM, Paul Davis wrote:
>
>
>>
>> The website doesn't change much. The "Applications" page already has
>> its own maintainer (though it also doesn't change much). I think you
>> already have push access on github, so ... great.
>>
>>
>
> The lack of change and improvement on the website...
> Well, I'll take the blame on me for that.
>
>
> In the past, I had a vision but my motivation to support the website
> kind of drowned due to various reasons. Some are similar observations like
> Paul's, some are related to the complicated situation JACK (as an
> API AND it's implementations) is in and there is also that damn thing
> called "life" that keeps happening to me, very distracting.
>
> Basically, I realised, that JACK is dead, maybe not yet the software,
> but as a project and that is frustrating. The more I research about JACK
> the more tired and sad I get, especially the inevitable aging of the
> software and so on... the usual stuff that software developers have to
> deal with. (see attachment for a little smile)
>
> That may sound very negative (because I am currently very negative about
> that) and I am not willing to contribute to JACK (1/2/API tools/homepage
> and in general) anymore unless someone can provide a positive and
> realistic vision for the project that is beyond milking the dead cow for
> another 4 or 5 years.
>
> I can check and merge pull requests, communicate and provide help
> regarding the homepage if someone want's to take over but I won't put
> significant effort in a website of which I have the feeling nobody cares
> about and represents a dead project.
>
> Well, enough rant and with the disclaimer that this is just from a
> personal and very limited perspective on things.
> _______________________________________________
> Jack-Devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.jackaudio.org/listinfo.cgi/jack-devel-jackaudio.org
>
>


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Re: stepping down

RJ Ryan
In reply to this post by Michael

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 2:50 PM, Michael <[hidden email]> wrote:

It's easier to list what does support other audio devices. Vlc, MPlayer, OBS, the screen recorder I use, Teamspeak, ... umm ... what else?

Mixxx, Audacity :)

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Re: stepping down

Sean Bolton-3
In reply to this post by Thomas Brand
On Sun Jan 31 2016, [hidden email] wrote:
> Hi,
> i find it a bit sad that anyone seems to say things like "JACK is
> dead" easily--- There is no alternative to it IMHO
> Please, JACK lovers, speak out!

JACK is dead, Slackware just incorporated PulseAudio--I'm so depressed.
Surely the end of civilization is nigh.

Oh, wait, that was last week's news. This week, I'm just honery. I shall
fiddle while Rome burns, and record myself using JACK1! And some DSSI
plugins. And my Delta 44, with its newly-replaced caps. And my
PCI-slotted PC that it all runs on. And, heck, I might just use
ecasound via a serial port to do the recording. 'Cause I'm a dinosaur,
but I'm not going extinct, because I've got the source code to all this
freakin' stuff! (Oh, yeah, the PCI slot thing might be a problem.)

Long live JACK!

(A very big thank-you to you, Paul, for all the work you've done. Best
wishes on your future endeavors.)

-Sean

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Re: stepping down

Kenneth Fields
In reply to this post by Thomas Brand
can’t exist without Jack. interapplication is essential to us.
in fact, I thought I remember a jack-video project about a decade ago.
that’s what I need now in addition to jack audio.

Ken

> On Jan 30, 2016, at 3:10 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
> Hi,
> i find it a bit sad that anyone seems to say things like "JACK is dead"
> easily--- There is no alternative to it IMHO
> Please, JACK lovers, speak out!
>
>
> On Sat, January 30, 2016 23:30, Markus Seeber wrote:
>> On 01/30/2016 07:09 PM, Paul Davis wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The website doesn't change much. The "Applications" page already has
>>> its own maintainer (though it also doesn't change much). I think you
>>> already have push access on github, so ... great.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The lack of change and improvement on the website...
>> Well, I'll take the blame on me for that.
>>
>>
>> In the past, I had a vision but my motivation to support the website
>> kind of drowned due to various reasons. Some are similar observations like
>> Paul's, some are related to the complicated situation JACK (as an
>> API AND it's implementations) is in and there is also that damn thing
>> called "life" that keeps happening to me, very distracting.
>>
>> Basically, I realised, that JACK is dead, maybe not yet the software,
>> but as a project and that is frustrating. The more I research about JACK
>> the more tired and sad I get, especially the inevitable aging of the
>> software and so on... the usual stuff that software developers have to
>> deal with. (see attachment for a little smile)
>>
>> That may sound very negative (because I am currently very negative about
>> that) and I am not willing to contribute to JACK (1/2/API tools/homepage
>> and in general) anymore unless someone can provide a positive and
>> realistic vision for the project that is beyond milking the dead cow for
>> another 4 or 5 years.
>>
>> I can check and merge pull requests, communicate and provide help
>> regarding the homepage if someone want's to take over but I won't put
>> significant effort in a website of which I have the feeling nobody cares
>> about and represents a dead project.
>>
>> Well, enough rant and with the disclaimer that this is just from a
>> personal and very limited perspective on things.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jack-Devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.jackaudio.org/listinfo.cgi/jack-devel-jackaudio.org
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jack-Devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.jackaudio.org/listinfo.cgi/jack-devel-jackaudio.org

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Re: stepping down

Spencer Russell
In reply to this post by Paul Davis
Thanks Paul, for all your work on JACK and Ardour. You’ve been, and continue to be, a huge force in open-source audio. I remember back in 2004 when I was a college student interning in Ron Parker’s recording studio, talking on IRC, reporting bugs, and testing out new builds. It was a formative time for me. I’m amazed and grateful that you’re keeping Ardour moving, relevant, and useful.

I agree JACK probably isn’t the right solution for your basic DAW user. That said, I think there’s great value in the general paradigm of separating the routing from the applications. As an application developer, it’s great to just expose your ports and make routing Somebody Else’s Problem.

I definitely don’t think JACK is dead (and that’s not how I read Paul’s words). Sure, there aren’t a bunch of new features all the time, but that’s not why I use JACK. It’s plumbing that works well. It enables things that are hard to do otherwise. Long Live JACK(N).

-s

On Jan 30, 2016, at 1:04 PM, Paul Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Benjamin Schmaus <[hidden email]> wrote:
+ jack-devel

pls see question for Paul below.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 8:48 AM Benjamin Schmaus <[hidden email]> wrote:
 as the years have gone on, although I am still delighted by the technical quality and 
   the conception of JACK, I no longer think that it is a particularly good idea for most users. There
   are times when it is useful

Could you elaborate on this?  Curious to know more.


JACK was developed in part because of the absence of a viable plugin API on Linux. It allowed people to "glue together" whole applications rather than load plugins into a host. This is pretty cool, no question. But the session management aspects of it are not that cool, and despite both the JACK session API and the Non session manager and other things that falktx (Filipe) have done, the situation for users really hasn't ever gotten to the point where reloading a "JACK session" comprised of many individual applications is as easy as it ought to be.

By contrast, we now have a fairly excellent plugin API (LV2) that is supported by several hosts, a number of which offer up quite different models of plugin loading, control, management and usage (Contrast, for example, Ardour, Carla, Qtractor, Non-foo and jalv). I think that most users are better served by developers creating LV2 plugins and the users loading them into one or more hosts of their choice (the so-called "monolithic environment" approach). This allows save+reload to be simple, fast, and reliable.

There will continue to be times when using JACK to glue together applications is still a really useful thing, and I hope that JACK will continue to be there to support those times. But I don't think JACK is generally the right solution for most users, most of the time. The one big positive it still offers: multiple applications can access the audio device at the same time, with low latency and synchronous behaviour. This is an important feature not offered by ALSA or PulseAudio, and for that reason alone, JACK remains important. It also the case that JACK is the only cross-platform system for doing inter-application audio.
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Re: stepping down

John Mills-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Brand
Thank you, Paul Davis, for originally making it possible for me to
build a real-tine composition environment using a transparent and
discoverable API.

John Mills


On 2016-01-31 12:10, [hidden email] wrote:
> Hi,
> i find it a bit sad that anyone seems to say things like "JACK is
> dead"
> easily--- There is no alternative to it IMHO
> Please, JACK lovers, speak out!

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Re: stepping down

Harry van Haaren
In reply to this post by Paul Davis
On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Paul Davis <[hidden email]> wrote:
 * as the years have gone on, although I am still delighted by the technical quality and
   the conception of JACK, I no longer think that it is a particularly good idea for most users. There
   are times when it is useful

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the educational aspect of JACK;
it is probably the simplest way to do audio I/O using C/C++. And the community
around it are a great bunch.

I like JACK for its routing and pro-audio use-cases, but its the fact that it
taught me to program audio applications due to it that I like most of all :)

Cheers! -Harry

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Re: stepping down

Markus Seeber
In reply to this post by Paul Davis
On 01/30/2016 05:13 PM, Paul Davis wrote:

> It would obviously be even better if someone was willing to take the big
> leap to JACK3, a version that combines all the best parts of JACK1 and
> JACK2, but I think it is more realistic to accept at this point that this
> is not going to happen.
>

Have there been some plans about JACK3 already or was this always just a
general Idea?

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Re: stepping down

Kjetil Matheussen-2
In reply to this post by Spencer Russell


On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 5:12 AM, Spencer Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree JACK probably isn’t the right solution for your basic DAW user. That said, I think there’s great value in the general paradigm of separating the routing from the applications. As an application developer, it’s great to just expose your ports and make routing Somebody Else’s Problem.


I don't think Jack is the wrong solution for a DAW either. But Jack never got finished.
It has a wonderful API, but it shouldn't be a struggle for a program to create a jack client
if a jack server isn't running. (there were a lot of talk about this around 10 years ago,
but the end result never became as good as it should I think).

I think the first program trying to create a client also should start the server. Not
just fork off a process, but actually run the server.
And if another program wants to create a jack client, it connects to the first client process,
which is the one running the server.

Furthermore, GUI should be built into libjack, so that you can call
jack_open_audio_driver_configuration_gui(), jack_open_audio_connection_configuration_gui(),
etc. inside your client.

I know there is something called libjackserver, but how many uses it? Does it do
all these things? How stable is it? In my opinion, there shouldn't
be any libjackserver, or jackd program, or qjackctl, only libjack.

Another problem with Jack is that it never attempted to do consumer audio,
and then we got pulseaudio in addition to Jack. There should only be Jack, IMO.





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