Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

torbenh

On Sun, Nov 06, 2005 at 11:35:01AM -0600, Jack O'Quin wrote:
> Lars Luthman <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > Is there any reason for not getting this into CVS? It would be very
> > convenient.
>
> Forgive me if this impression is mistaken.  It is not based on any
> personal experience.  I don't have a MIDI setup here to try it with.

what does one need a midi setup for to try out the jack midi patch ?
the midi patch does not even now anything about alsa-seq.


>
> Committing it to the CVS trunk is a very serious step with significant
> binary compatibility implications for the future.  Are we nearly ready
> to freeze these interfaces?

not commiting the midi patch keeps the user base at current 3 people
sean, lars, dave.
the patch breaks on a regular basis, because of changes in jack.
i dont have the time to patch around all the time only to write some
code for jack-midi.

i am waiting for the interface to freeze.
it works so it can be frozen.


> What is the consensus of those who have experience with JACK MIDI?
> Should it go into the main CVS trunk, or a separate branch?

> Is there some partial patch that would make it easier to add MIDI
> features without permaturely committing us to one particular API?

this is not a complex beast like the transport API. this is just some
timestamped strings in a buffer.

but if it gets into jack, linux audio will rise.
you will see. a new dimension......

--
torben Hohn
http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language



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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Jack O'Quin-2

> On Sun, Nov 06, 2005 at 11:35:01AM -0600, Jack O'Quin wrote:
>> Forgive me if this impression is mistaken.  It is not based on any
>> personal experience.  I don't have a MIDI setup here to try it with.

[hidden email] writes:
> what does one need a midi setup for to try out the jack midi patch ?
> the midi patch does not even now anything about alsa-seq.

I have been so completely out of touch with JACK MIDI development,
that I did not even know it could do useful things without hooking up
some kind of MIDI device.  (I am not a MIDI user.)

>> Committing it to the CVS trunk is a very serious step with significant
>> binary compatibility implications for the future.  Are we nearly ready
>> to freeze these interfaces?
>
> not commiting the midi patch keeps the user base at current 3 people
> sean, lars, dave.  the patch breaks on a regular basis, because of
> changes in jack.  i dont have the time to patch around all the time
> only to write some code for jack-midi.

I somehow had the impression there were many more than 3 users.

> i am waiting for the interface to freeze.
> it works so it can be frozen.

OK, thanks for the input.

>> What is the consensus of those who have experience with JACK MIDI?
>> Should it go into the main CVS trunk, or a separate branch?
>
>> Is there some partial patch that would make it easier to add MIDI
>> features without permaturely committing us to one particular API?
>
> this is not a complex beast like the transport API. this is just some
> timestamped strings in a buffer.

Wasn't there some recent jackit-devel discussion about representing
these strings differently?

> but if it gets into jack, linux audio will rise.  you will see. a
> new dimension......

I fully support the goal of supporting MIDI in JACK.  But, I have not
had any time to work on it so far.
--
  joq


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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Jay Vaughan
In reply to this post by torbenh
>  > What is the consensus of those who have experience with JACK MIDI?
>  > Should it go into the main CVS trunk, or a separate branch?
>  > Is there some partial patch that would make it easier to add MIDI
>  > features without permaturely committing us to one particular API?
>this is not a complex beast like the transport API. this is just some
>timestamped strings in a buffer.


if Jack used MidiShare instead of re-inventing the wheel, it'd rock a
lot harder.

--

;

Jay Vaughan



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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Jack O'Quin-2
Jay Vaughan <[hidden email]> writes:

> if Jack used MidiShare instead of re-inventing the wheel, it'd rock a
> lot harder.

My impression is that JACK MIDI is directly based on the ALSA
sequencer.  AFAICT, most Linux MIDI apps use that already.

For those of us unfamiliar with MidiShare, what are its primary
advantages and disadvantages, in your view?
--
  joq


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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Jay Vaughan
>  > if Jack used MidiShare instead of re-inventing the wheel, it'd rock a
>  > lot harder.
>My impression is that JACK MIDI is directly based on the ALSA
>sequencer.  AFAICT, most Linux MIDI apps use that already.
>For those of us unfamiliar with MidiShare, what are its primary
>advantages and disadvantages, in your view?

#1. It is a very refined API designed for the needs of MIDI, and has
been with us for a long time.  This is a Good Thing (tm).  It is a
very lovely API for MIDI programming, it actually makes it fun.

#2. Great attention has been paid by the Grame crew to make it as
efficient a system as possible.  Check out their papers on lock-free
fifo's, implemented in the MidiShare system, for an example of the
thinking behind MidiShares' efficiency.

#3. It is portable.  You cannot easily port ALSA-midi to OSX.  You
*can* port MidiShare to OSX (very easily), as well as Windows. (it
has been done already)

I'd say #3 is the most important: if Jack used MidiShare, Jack would
have MIDI on Linux, OSX, and Windows, fully supported .. very little
work required.  I don't think you can say the same for ALSA-midi in
that regard.  Also, MidiShare has an ALSA-MIDI driver layer already,
so you can use ALSA for MIDI (driver) if you want, with MidiShare on
top.  You can also use MidiShare on Linux without touching ALSA at
all .. and the MidiShare port to Linux has a kernel module, already,
which works very well.

Maybe the solution is not to target one specific API, nor to
re-invent the wheel and re-build MIDI altogether just for JACK, but
to make the JACKMIDI interface compatibile with both ALSA-midi as
well as MidiShare.  If help is needed, I can offer it for the
MidiShare side .. but i also don't want to upset the apple cart.  if
Jack MIDI is already using ALSA, then so be it .. however, if I can
get access to the patches, I could try to give you a picture of what
it would take to break out the Jack MIDI side of things to support
the MidiShare API as well as ALSA ..

as for disadvantages, well if JACK ignored ALSA-midi, that wouldn't
be very linux-friendly, would it .. but honestly, i can't think of
any advantages that ALSA has over MidiShare on Linux, other than
'being ubiquitous, through the kernel' ..

--

;

Jay Vaughan



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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Lars Luthman
In reply to this post by Jack O'Quin-2
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 10:12 -0600, Jack O'Quin wrote:
> Jay Vaughan <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> > if Jack used MidiShare instead of re-inventing the wheel, it'd rock a
> > lot harder.
>
> My impression is that JACK MIDI is directly based on the ALSA
> sequencer.  AFAICT, most Linux MIDI apps use that already.

I don't think this is correct. From what I have seen, JACK MIDI is
completely independent of ALSA.

--
Lars Luthman
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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by Jay Vaughan
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 08:44 +0100, Jay Vaughan wrote:

> >  > What is the consensus of those who have experience with JACK MIDI?
> >  > Should it go into the main CVS trunk, or a separate branch?
> >  > Is there some partial patch that would make it easier to add MIDI
> >  > features without permaturely committing us to one particular API?
> >this is not a complex beast like the transport API. this is just some
> >timestamped strings in a buffer.
>
>
> if Jack used MidiShare instead of re-inventing the wheel, it'd rock a
> lot harder.
>

You didn't phrase your comment in patch form.

Lee



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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Dave Robillard
In reply to this post by Jay Vaughan
On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 08:44 +0100, Jay Vaughan wrote:

> >  > What is the consensus of those who have experience with JACK MIDI?
> >  > Should it go into the main CVS trunk, or a separate branch?
> >  > Is there some partial patch that would make it easier to add MIDI
> >  > features without permaturely committing us to one particular API?
> >this is not a complex beast like the transport API. this is just some
> >timestamped strings in a buffer.
>
>
> if Jack used MidiShare instead of re-inventing the wheel, it'd rock a
> lot harder.

Long answer:

I'm sure MidiShare is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I'm
afraid this doesn't really make sense.

MidiShare (with all it's talk of IPC and scheduling and timing etc)
looks like a blocking I/O based API, ala Alsa.  Jack needs simple
extensions to allow passing /buffers/ full of sample-accurate
timestamped MIDI events.  No scheduling.  Something like MidiShare with
it's own ideas of scheduling/timing/IPC/etc is fundamentally not usable
as a Jack MIDI replacement at all.  I've only taken a quick glance at
MidiShare, but from what I can tell not only does it not provide what we
need, but even if it did it's a mountain (or two) of completely
unecessary complexity for Jack's purposes.  It is perhaps possible to
have MidiShare work with Jack MIDI as a backend, if you like the API so
much.

Short answer:

Way, way, way, way, way, waay too complex for what we need.


Also, I'm not aware of any case where this "wheel" has been invented
before, outside plugin APIs (but I'm admittedly ignorant of proprietary
APIs in general).  Anyone?  Does ASIO or CoreMIDI provide callback
driven buffers of sample accurate MIDI events (in-band with audio) like
Jack?

-DR-



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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by Jay Vaughan
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 17:19 +0100, Jay Vaughan wrote:
> #3. It is portable.  You cannot easily port ALSA-midi to OSX.  You
> *can* port MidiShare to OSX (very easily), as well as Windows. (it
> has been done already)
>
> I'd say #3 is the most important: if Jack used MidiShare, Jack would
> have MIDI on Linux, OSX, and Windows, fully supported .. very little
> work required.

JACK does not run on Windows.  Why would we want it to?

>   I don't think you can say the same for ALSA-midi in
> that regard.  Also, MidiShare has an ALSA-MIDI driver layer already,
> so you can use ALSA for MIDI (driver) if you want, with MidiShare on
> top.  You can also use MidiShare on Linux without touching ALSA at
> all .. and the MidiShare port to Linux has a kernel module, already,
> which works very well.

It's not in the mainline kernel, therefore we can't use it.

Lee



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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Jay Vaughan
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
>  > if Jack used MidiShare instead of re-inventing the wheel, it'd rock a
>  > lot harder.
>
>You didn't phrase your comment in patch form.
>

thats because i wanted to make a comment, in a discussion, not submit a patch.

if i wanted to submit a patch, i would've submitted a patch.

i wanted to make a comment.

its not as if i'd be unwilling to submit a patch; but for sure i
wouldn't personally bother doing MidiShare integration with jack if,
the generally savvy jack hackers, haven't already commented about it
a bit, first..

--

;

Jay Vaughan



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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
In reply to this post by Jay Vaughan
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 08:44 +0100, Jay Vaughan wrote:
> >  > What is the consensus of those who have experience with JACK MIDI?
> >  > Should it go into the main CVS trunk, or a separate branch?
> >  > Is there some partial patch that would make it easier to add MIDI
> >  > features without permaturely committing us to one particular API?
> >this is not a complex beast like the transport API. this is just some
> >timestamped strings in a buffer.
>
> if Jack used MidiShare instead of re-inventing the wheel, it'd rock a
> lot harder.

There are very few (3 that I know[*]) applications that use Midishare,
the vast majority of MIDI apps use the ALSA sequencer interface as well.
I imagine that's what Jack MIDI uses.

As has been pointed out Midishare is very nice but it requires a kernel
module that is not included in the current kernel sources - so, it is
not a system that runs "out of the box" in current distros. I would not
base new applications on it for that reason.

[I used to have special kernel modules for midishare for the 2.4.x based
distros of Planet CCRMA because of Common Music, but additional kernel
modules are a pain.]

-- Fernando

[*] of course there may be more, the ones I know:
    fluidsynth
    open music for linux (no longer maintained).
    common music (now can use portmidi instead).




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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Jay Vaughan
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
>
>It's not in the mainline kernel, therefore we can't use it.
>

how now, thats an interesting dictum, i'll be watching the way this
one plays out ..

--

;

Jay Vaughan



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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

torbenh
In reply to this post by Dave Robillard
On Tue, Nov 08, 2005 at 03:50:20AM +1100, Dave Robillard wrote:

> On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 08:44 +0100, Jay Vaughan wrote:
>
> Short answer:
>
> Way, way, way, way, way, waay too complex for what we need.
>
>
> Also, I'm not aware of any case where this "wheel" has been invented
> before, outside plugin APIs (but I'm admittedly ignorant of proprietary
> APIs in general).  Anyone?  Does ASIO or CoreMIDI provide callback
> driven buffers of sample accurate MIDI events (in-band with audio) like
> Jack?

or to make this even clearer:

i want a simple midi-sine voice to look like this:

  process():
  {
    static float current_freq=440;

    start = 0;
    for (offset, note-freq) in filternoteons(midievents):
       renderSineToOutputBuffer( current_freq, start, offset-1 );
       start = offset;
       current_freq = note-freq;

    renderSineToOutputBuffer( current_freq, start, jack_port_len )
  }


no messing around with lock free fifos, midithreads, priority
inversion, what else ?

thats the most appreciated feature of the jack API. it hides these
very complex things from the programmers.

and if you look at many jack-synths the midi input is not as accurate as
it could be.


and yes i drank a little too much wine before writing the other mail.

--
torben Hohn
http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language


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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Jack O'Quin-2
In reply to this post by Jay Vaughan
Jay Vaughan <[hidden email]> writes:

>>You didn't phrase your comment in patch form.
>
> thats because i wanted to make a comment, in a discussion, not submit a patch.
>
> if i wanted to submit a patch, i would've submitted a patch.

Patches and comments are both welcome here.
--
  joq


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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Jack O'Quin-2
In reply to this post by Jay Vaughan

>>It's not in the mainline kernel, therefore we can't use it.

Jay Vaughan <[hidden email]> writes:
> how now, thats an interesting dictum, i'll be watching the way this
> one plays out ..

We've been working hard for a long time to make JACK and its
applications available to "ordinary" users without requiring heroic
hackery for them to get things working properly.  Adding anything to
the Linux kernel is an unbelievably long and mind-numbingly tedious
process.  But, standard kernels have finally become "good enough" for
our needs.

So, while we /could/ introduce a dependency on some non-standard
kernel patch, we will almost certainly choose not to.

However, JACK is not only for Linux.  We have OSX and BSD ports, and
could support other POSIX-like systems (but probably not Windows).
MidiShare might be useful for Mac support, though I suspect we would
end up using the native Mac interfaces instead, just as we now use
CoreAudio in preference to PortAudio on that platform.  I presume the
OSX MidiShare does not require a kernel patch.
--
  joq


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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

torbenh
In reply to this post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 12:31:58PM -0800, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
> There are very few (3 that I know[*]) applications that use Midishare,
> the vast majority of MIDI apps use the ALSA sequencer interface as well.
> I imagine that's what Jack MIDI uses.

i would like to repeat again, that jack-midi does not have anything to
do with alsa-seq.

its the ONLY way of transporting sample accurate midi events between
applications, which does not introduce an unnecessary high number of
context switches.

how does the scheduler know that it must run a sequencer before the
synths ?

there is no option. other than writing monolithic apps again.

>
> As has been pointed out Midishare is very nice but it requires a kernel
> module that is not included in the current kernel sources - so, it is
> not a system that runs "out of the box" in current distros. I would not
> base new applications on it for that reason.
>
> [I used to have special kernel modules for midishare for the 2.4.x based
> distros of Planet CCRMA because of Common Music, but additional kernel
> modules are a pain.]
>
> -- Fernando
>
> [*] of course there may be more, the ones I know:
>     fluidsynth
>     open music for linux (no longer maintained).
>     common music (now can use portmidi instead).
>
>
>
>
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--
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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 23:16 +0100, [hidden email] wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 07, 2005 at 12:31:58PM -0800, Fernando Lopez-Lezcano wrote:
> > There are very few (3 that I know[*]) applications that use Midishare,
> > the vast majority of MIDI apps use the ALSA sequencer interface as well.
> > I imagine that's what Jack MIDI uses.
>
> i would like to repeat again, that jack-midi does not have anything to
> do with alsa-seq.
>
> its the ONLY way of transporting sample accurate midi events between
> applications, which does not introduce an unnecessary high number of
> context switches.

arghh, sorry for the misunderstanding......
-- Fernando




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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Dave Robillard
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 11:49 -0500, Lee Revell wrote:

> On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 08:44 +0100, Jay Vaughan wrote:
> > >  > What is the consensus of those who have experience with JACK MIDI?
> > >  > Should it go into the main CVS trunk, or a separate branch?
> > >  > Is there some partial patch that would make it easier to add MIDI
> > >  > features without permaturely committing us to one particular API?
> > >this is not a complex beast like the transport API. this is just some
> > >timestamped strings in a buffer.
> >
> >
> > if Jack used MidiShare instead of re-inventing the wheel, it'd rock a
> > lot harder.
> >
>
> You didn't phrase your comment in patch form.

Heh, that is the single greatest canned free software response to
something I have ever heard.  If I had a .sig....

Kudos. :)

-DR-



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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Jay Vaughan
In reply to this post by Jack O'Quin-2
>CoreAudio in preference to PortAudio on that platform.  I presume the
>OSX MidiShare does not require a kernel patch.

no, and neither does MidiShare/linux require a kernel patch, just so
its clear.  it compiles its own kernel module - so you have to have
kernel source onboard - but i honestly never found this a difficult
thing to do.

regardless, i'll back off on the midishare thing.  seems like its all
quite well under control, and it can't hurt to have the jack hackers
re-do'ing the MIDI/Audio integration shuffle, either ..

--

;

Jay Vaughan



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Re: Jack MIDI into CVS now, please.

Paul Davis
In reply to this post by Jay Vaughan
On Mon, 2005-11-07 at 19:33 +0100, Jay Vaughan wrote:
> >  > if Jack used MidiShare instead of re-inventing the wheel, it'd rock a
> >  > lot harder.

the JACK midi patch has nothing per se to do with the functionality that
MidiShare offers, or even the functionality offered by the ALSA
sequencer.

neither of these systems provide for sample accurate inter-process
exchange of MIDI data, which is what the JACK midi patch is for.

hooking up the internal MIDI flow within a JACK graph to some external
system (e.g. MidiShare, ALSA Sequencer, CoreMidi) is a different issue,
and is not a core part of the patch, although it does involve more code
than the patch itself.

--p





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