User question about decent external audio interface.

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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

Rui Nuno Capela
Lee Revell wrote:

> On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 20:22 +0200, Jonas Widarsson wrote:
>> jonas@jw jonas $ /usr/bin/jackd  -d alsa -d hw:1 -n 2 -p 64
>
>> DRIVER NT: could not start driver
>> cannot start driver
>> jonas@jw jonas $
>
> 64 frames with a USB device?  No way in hell is that going to work.
> It's barely possible with PCI.
>

My laptop and my Tascam US-224 can :) No xruns, no glitches. But much
special care must be taken first: its on a full Ingo's RT patched 2.6
kernel, usb-hcd in the highest SCHED_FIFO rtprio, snd-usb-usx2y loaded
with nrpacks=1 and thanks to Kartsen Wiese's awesome "rawusb" mode of a
specialized alsa/usx2y jackd backend (thru a dedicated hwdep interface),
pumping full-duplex low-lat audio as been perfectly possible. However,
if just one, any one of those conditions are not met, sure hell is in
the house :))

Going back to the topic, when using the regular alsa backend of jackd's,
on which all other usb-audio interfaces are still confined, things can
hardly run below 256x2, if at all. At least without lots of pops and
crackles. And so it seems, that it just doesn't matter which kernel
tunning you're into. So Lee is dead right about trying first longer
periods; the default 1024x2 setting should work. Try it first!

Cheers.
--


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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by jonas (Bugzilla)-5
On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 20:22 +0200, Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> Sunday 28 August 2005 19:28 Melanie wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > SoundBlaster Audigy NX works for me. One stereo input only, but 3
> > stereo outputs. Sound quality is good @48 kHz.
> >
> > Melanie
>
> Now I have my AUDIGY 2 NX USB plugged in and set up with alsa.

So "aplay file.wav" works?

Lee



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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by jonas (Bugzilla)-5
On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 22:41 +0200, Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> I use this alsa configuration:

What if you lose the .asoundrc and just use -d hw:0,0?

Lee



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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

melanie-36
In reply to this post by jonas (Bugzilla)-5
Weird things happen is the Audigy is connected to a hub, rather
than the computer itself, sometimes.

Also, snd-usb-audio should be loaded with nrpacks=1

Melanei


Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> Now I have my AUDIGY 2 NX USB plugged in and set up with alsa.
>
> But,
> I get the error "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" when trying out the pasted
> commands at the end.


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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

Lee Revell
On Fri, 2005-09-02 at 01:24 +0200, Melanie wrote:
> Weird things happen is the Audigy is connected to a hub, rather
> than the computer itself, sometimes.
>

Kernel bug, should be fixed in 2.6.13.

> Also, snd-usb-audio should be loaded with nrpacks=1

If so then why isn't this the default?

Lee



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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

jonas (Bugzilla)-5
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
Friday 02 September 2005 01:05 Lee Revell wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 22:41 +0200, Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> > I use this alsa configuration:
>
> What if you lose the .asoundrc and just use -d hw:0,0?
>
> Lee
That's what I did first, see initial email.
It didn't work at all with jack at least.
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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

jonas (Bugzilla)-5
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
Friday 02 September 2005 00:31 Lee Revell wrote:
> > Now I have my AUDIGY 2 NX USB plugged in and set up with alsa.
>
> So "aplay file.wav" works?
>
> Lee

I am sorry I haven't really tried.
I am not used to troubleshooting sound on linux.
I will try Melanie's suggestions tonight (Sweden).

Thank you
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Jonas Widarsson

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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver"

Clemens Ladisch
In reply to this post by jonas (Bugzilla)-5
Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> Now I have my AUDIGY 2 NX USB plugged in and set up with alsa.
>
> could not start playback (Broken pipe)

This indicates a problem with the USB subsystem in the kernel.
Probable causes are a kernel that doesn't support sending full speed
audio data through a hub (that code is broken anyway), or a kernel
that thinks the available USB bandwidth has been exceeded (the
bandwidth calculation code is broken, too).

What is the error code in the system log?


Regards,
Clemens



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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver"

Clemens Ladisch
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
Lee Revell wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-09-02 at 01:24 +0200, Melanie wrote:
> > snd-usb-audio should be loaded with nrpacks=1
>
> If so then why isn't this the default?

This value is automatically reduced when using smaller periods, and
shouldn't matter in other cases.  Some bugs related to this have been
fixed in ALSA 1.0.10rc1.


Regards,
Clemens



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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver"

jonas (Bugzilla)-5
In reply to this post by Clemens Ladisch
Friday 02 September 2005 09:56 Clemens Ladisch wrote:

> Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> > Now I have my AUDIGY 2 NX USB plugged in and set up with alsa.
> >
> > could not start playback (Broken pipe)
>
> This indicates a problem with the USB subsystem in the kernel.
> Probable causes are a kernel that doesn't support sending full speed
> audio data through a hub (that code is broken anyway), or a kernel
> that thinks the available USB bandwidth has been exceeded (the
> bandwidth calculation code is broken, too).
>
> What is the error code in the system log?
>
>
> Regards,
> Clemens

I am not using any USB Hub as far as I know. This is what lspci says about the
USB host controller:

00:03.0 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 7001 (rev 0f)
00:03.1 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 7001 (rev 0f)
00:03.2 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] 7001 (rev 0f)
00:03.3 USB Controller: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] SiS7002 USB 2.0

I have four USB jacks on the computer, so I guess those jacks are not "hubbed"
inside the computer.

And this is what /var/log/messages says:

Sep  1 22:13:45 jw usbcore: registered new driver snd-usb-audio
Sep  1 22:20:55 jw
ALSA /var/tmp/portage/alsa-driver-1.0.9b/work/alsa-driver-1.0.9b/usb/usbaudio.c:771:
cannot submit datapipe for
urb 0, err = -28
Sep  1 22:20:55 jw ohci_hcd 0000:00:03.0: leak ed ceaf9800 (#01) state 2

I can tell from the times in the log that each entry comes from jack bailing
out. It is not a message being repeated automatically.

Melanie said I need to load snd-usb-audio with nrpacks=1, which I can't try
until I get home from work.

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Jonas Widarsson

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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver"

Clemens Ladisch
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
Lee Revell wrote:
> 64 frames with a USB device?  No way in hell is that going to work.

It does with ALSA 1.0.10rc1 and when not using full duplex.

I have some experimental patches to Jack that make it work with full
duplex, at the cost of increasing the latency of captured data.

One of the problems with USB is that the playback and capture streams
are not exactly synchronized[1].  This often results in xruns when one
stream is ready while the other won't be until one millisecond later.
The idea of my patch is to increase the capture buffer size and to
start capturing somewhat earlier so that the capture stream is
'always' ready and the playback stream is the only stream we're
waiting for.


[1] The Audigy 2 NX uses frequency feedback, i.e., the computer must
synchronize to the device's sample clock.  This means the real sample
rate is not a multiple of 1000 even when the nominal rate is 48k or
96k.


Regards,
Clemens



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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver"

melanie-36
In reply to this post by jonas (Bugzilla)-5
Hi,

Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> ALSA /var/tmp/portage/alsa-driver-1.0.9b/work/alsa-driver-1.0.9b/usb/usbaudio.c:771:
> cannot submit datapipe for
> urb 0, err = -28

I have seen just that error, that was at a very early stage of
trying to get the interface to work. I believe that was when I
tried to use 44100 Hz. You _must_ use 48 kHz or better with this
interface, or step down to 32000 Hz.

Melanie


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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

jonas (Bugzilla)-5
In reply to this post by Rui Nuno Capela
Friday 02 September 2005 00:20 Rui Nuno Capela wrote:

> Lee Revell wrote:
> > On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 20:22 +0200, Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> >> jonas@jw jonas $ /usr/bin/jackd  -d alsa -d hw:1 -n 2 -p 64
> >>
> >> DRIVER NT: could not start driver
> >> cannot start driver
> >> jonas@jw jonas $
> >
> > 64 frames with a USB device?  No way in hell is that going to work.
> > It's barely possible with PCI.
>
> My laptop and my Tascam US-224 can :) No xruns, no glitches. But much
> special care must be taken first: its on a full Ingo's RT patched 2.6
> kernel, usb-hcd in the highest SCHED_FIFO rtprio, snd-usb-usx2y loaded
> with nrpacks=1 and thanks to Kartsen Wiese's awesome "rawusb" mode of a
> specialized alsa/usx2y jackd backend (thru a dedicated hwdep interface),
> pumping full-duplex low-lat audio as been perfectly possible. However,
> if just one, any one of those conditions are not met, sure hell is in
> the house :))

This is interesting.
I would gladly go that route if it makes things better.

One question arises:

I use my laptop for cron job bzipping gigabytes every now and then, while I
run KDE and develop PHP using quanta, mysql and firefox. This makes great
demands on the multitasking capabilities. I want to know if your setup is
useful for other things also (when not running jack) with that setup?

I care about my interactive response ;)

I know I could switch kernels for different uses, but I believe it would be
nice if I wouldn't need to.

> Going back to the topic, when using the regular alsa backend of jackd's,
> on which all other usb-audio interfaces are still confined, things can
> hardly run below 256x2, if at all. At least without lots of pops and
> crackles. And so it seems, that it just doesn't matter which kernel
> tunning you're into. So Lee is dead right about trying first longer
> periods; the default 1024x2 setting should work. Try it first!
>
> Cheers.
Ok I understand. And I expect it as well.
I set it to 2,64 just to see how low the driver would allow me to set it.
I haven't got any sound out of it yet so I don't know where those parameters
will settle.

Thank you very much for your response. I appreciate it a lot!
--
Jonas Widarsson

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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver"

Clemens Ladisch
In reply to this post by melanie-36
> Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> > cannot submit datapipe for urb 0, err = -28

28 is ENOSPC.  Disable the bandwidth checking in the kernel
configuration (CONFIG_USB_BANDWIDTH).


HTH
Clemens



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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

Rui Nuno Capela
In reply to this post by jonas (Bugzilla)-5
Jonas Widarsson wrote:

> Friday 02 September 2005 00:20 Rui Nuno Capela wrote:
>
>>My laptop and my Tascam US-224 can :) No xruns, no glitches. But much
>>special care must be taken first: its on a full Ingo's RT patched 2.6
>>kernel, usb-hcd in the highest SCHED_FIFO rtprio, snd-usb-usx2y loaded
>>with nrpacks=1 and thanks to Kartsen Wiese's awesome "rawusb" mode of a
>>specialized alsa/usx2y jackd backend (thru a dedicated hwdep interface),
>>pumping full-duplex low-lat audio as been perfectly possible. However,
>>if just one, any one of those conditions are not met, sure hell is in
>>the house :))
>
>
> This is interesting.
> I would gladly go that route if it makes things better.
>
> One question arises:
>
> I use my laptop for cron job bzipping gigabytes every now and then, while I
> run KDE and develop PHP using quanta, mysql and firefox. This makes great
> demands on the multitasking capabilities. I want to know if your setup is
> useful for other things also (when not running jack) with that setup?
>

AFAICT it's full operational. KDE here too. However, that's true that
overall desktop responsiveness gets noticeable slower, but not that it
annoys me. e.g. screen repaints just aren't snappy as when jackd isn't
running.

But then again, running with insane lowest periods (e.g. 64x2) is
somewhat overkill, leaving the system to context switching most of the
time. I must confess that, in normal operation, I rather stay in a more
conservative setting, like 256x2, and so I get the best of the worlds:
reasonable realtime latency (~12ms) and good interactive responsiveness.
Doing it below 128x2 (<6ms), although possible as I've stated, just
serves as a proof-of-concept, and one must take it like so. Like you can
harness the system just about over its bleeding-edge. Simply insane IMHO :)

Cheers.
--
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[hidden email]




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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

jonas (Bugzilla)-5
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
Friday 02 September 2005 00:31 Lee Revell wrote:

> On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 20:22 +0200, Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> > Sunday 28 August 2005 19:28 Melanie wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > SoundBlaster Audigy NX works for me. One stereo input only, but 3
> > > stereo outputs. Sound quality is good @48 kHz.
> > >
> > > Melanie
> >
> > Now I have my AUDIGY 2 NX USB plugged in and set up with alsa.
>
> So "aplay file.wav" works?
>
> Lee

Yes, it did.
It is working now. What an interesting ~10 hour journey.
I am posting just to show the archives what made the fix for me.

I have changed to this:
"Ingo" - thanks to Florian Schmidt it was a breeze [1]:
$ uname -a
Linux jw 2.6.13-rc4-RT-V0.7.52-10 #1 SMP Fri Sep 2 20:15:32 CEST 2005 i686
Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.60GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux

$ cat /proc/asound/version
Advanced Linux Sound Architecture Driver Version 1.0.10rc1.
Compiled on Sep  2 2005 for kernel 2.6.13-rc4-RT-V0.7.52-10 (SMP).

$ jackd -V
jackd version 0.100.0 tmpdir /dev/shm protocol 15

I got rid of the error "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" only after
upgrading alsa-driver and compiling it myself.
It seems the gentoo version 1.0.9b was broken in some sense.

I haven't started tuning any RT settings for low latency yet but I am running:

$ jackd -R -P 70 -d alsa -n 4 -p 64
jackd 0.100.0
Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others.
jackd comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it
under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details

JACK compiled with System V SHM support.
loading driver ..
creating alsa driver ... hw:0|hw:0|64|4|48000|0|0|nomon|swmeter|-|32bit
control device hw:0
configuring for 48000Hz, period = 64 frames, buffer = 4 periods
Note: audio device hw:0 doesn't support a 32bit sample format so JACK will try
a 24bit format instead
nperiods = 4 for capture
Note: audio device hw:0 doesn't support a 32bit sample format so JACK will try
a 24bit format instead
nperiods = 4 for playback


Yes, I get some xruns but not many. I hope to be able to prioritize them away
after reading some more.

[1]:
http://tapas.affenbande.org/?page_id=6

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Jonas Widarsson

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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

melanie-36
Well, I didn't mention these two because that si what I always do:

Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> I have changed to this:
> "Ingo" - thanks to Florian Schmidt it was a breeze [1]:
> $ uname -a
> Linux jw 2.6.13-rc4-RT-V0.7.52-10 #1 SMP Fri Sep 2 20:15:32 CEST 2005 i686
> Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.60GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux

> I got rid of the error "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" only after
> upgrading alsa-driver and compiling it myself.
> It seems the gentoo version 1.0.9b was broken in some sense.

I always run "Ingo" kernels and I always compile things myself,
I'm not a "distro" person. Sorry I didn't mention them and saved
you some trouble.

Melanie


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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by jonas (Bugzilla)-5
On Sat, 2005-09-03 at 00:24 +0200, Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> > So "aplay file.wav" works?
> >
> > Lee
>
> Yes, it did.
> It is working now. What an interesting ~10 hour journey.
> I am posting just to show the archives what made the fix for me.

OK, great.  So it wasn't a JACK issue but an ALSA bug that's fixed in
the latest version.

You could probably have saved some time by testing "aplay file.wav"
first.  If that doesn't work then there's no point trying JACK.

Lee



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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

Lee Revell
In reply to this post by melanie-36
On Sat, 2005-09-03 at 00:39 +0200, Melanie wrote:
> > It seems the gentoo version 1.0.9b was broken in some sense.
>
> I always run "Ingo" kernels and I always compile things myself,

The Ingo kernel had nothing to do with this bug.  Installing the latest
ALSA version would have fixed it.

Lee



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Re: AUDIGY 2 NX USB - "DRIVER NT: could not start driver" - Was: User question about decent external audio interface.

jonas (Bugzilla)-5
In reply to this post by Lee Revell
Saturday 03 September 2005 02:16 Lee Revell wrote:

> On Sat, 2005-09-03 at 00:24 +0200, Jonas Widarsson wrote:
> > > So "aplay file.wav" works?
> > >
> > > Lee
> >
> > Yes, it did.
> > It is working now. What an interesting ~10 hour journey.
> > I am posting just to show the archives what made the fix for me.
>
> OK, great.  So it wasn't a JACK issue but an ALSA bug that's fixed in
> the latest version.
>
> You could probably have saved some time by testing "aplay file.wav"
> first.  If that doesn't work then there's no point trying JACK.
>
> Lee

I said "Yes, it *did*" because aplay worked all the time actually. I tried it
yesterday immediately when I got home and I had sound on first attempt. It
was only when starting jackd I had problems.

--
Jonas Widarsson

tel: +46 271 152 00 - tel: +46 271 121 42 (hemma/home) - gsm: +46 70 539 64 79
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